West Virginia Blue
The Best Blogging Community in West Virginia
Democratic politics, progressive policies, the good life and free living in Wild, Wonderful West Virginia.
Big Daddy Sen. Robert C. Byrd

SMOKED OUT: ARE SMOKING BANS AN INFRINGEMENT UPON CIVIL LIBERTIES?

by: Jeremiah

Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:06:13 AM EDT


( - promoted by Carnacki)

Give me liberty or give me death!  Patrick Henry's famous words take on an interesting twist if you think of them in terms of one's liberty to make a decision that puts their life at risk.  I guess smokers could be saying, "Give me liberty that gives me death."  In fact, many smokers are saying just that as many jurisdictions pass various types of smoking bans to the toker's chagrin.  The recent smoking ban in Kanawha County bars and gambling parlors is no different.  People are pissed and feel that government is infringing upon their civil liberties.  Are smokers right?  Or does their habit create a public health hazard?  In this blog I will examine this policy paradox with particular attention being given to the Kanawha County ban.  

I must start with the caveat that I am not a smoker but I am a staunch proponent of civil liberties.  I favor one's right to bear arms while telling dirty jokes about the Pope and President in a gay pride parade on Christmas day.  Hell, as far as I am concerned you can leave that parade go home and smoke 5 packs of cigarettes and 4 and a half blunts while burning an effigy of Uncle Sam.  I might not agree but I do not have to.  My general philosophy is that if your actions do not infringe upon another person's civil liberties then you have the right to do it.  That being said, life is not usually painted in black and white but in various shades of gray.  It is within these shades that we find the Kanawha County smoking ban.  

On July 1st, the Kanawha County Health Department deemed smoking off limits in bars, gambling parlors and the Tri-State casino.  These are places where alcohol is served and can only be accessed by consenting adults.  Last fall, the health board voted unanimously to pass the new regulations after holding two public hearings and reviewing large numbers of public comments.  Over 180 bars have been impacted by the decision and many of those bar owners are very upset.  The owners feel they are being told how to operate their businesses by an unelected health board.  They claim that the ban will have a huge negative impact on their bottom line because smoking patrons will now stay home.  Opponents feel that if you don't like the smoke then stay away.  On the other side of the coin proponents of the ban point to the overwhelming science showing how dangerous smoking is to not only the smoker's health but those breathing the air around the smoker.  Proponents of the ban also claim that employees of bars should not be subjected to such a blatant and avoidable health hazard.    

The impact of smoking bans upon business (debatable) notwithstanding, an owner's right to operate his or her business as they please is a valid argument that holds sway upon first examination.  However, one's decision to smoke does not only impact one's own health but also that of other patrons and more importantly waiters, busboys, musicians, bouncers, bartenders, dishwashers and the cooks in your favorite watering hole.  Whereas a patron can go to a non smoking establishment or leave after one or two drinks, the employees are subjected to a concentrated toxin for the duration of their shift.  

Bar owners and smokers may say that these employees choose to work in a smoky environment and that they can also choose to work somewhere else if the smoke bothers them.  I counter that point by saying not everyone has a plethora of other jobs available and even if they did why should certain employers be allowed to subject their employees to preventable health hazards.  This would be like one coal operator running a mine with no safety protocols saying that if the miners did not want to be subjected to the additional risk then they have the freedom to go elsewhere.  As a society we would rightfully not stand for this, to Don Blankenship's annoyance, and all coal mines must follow the same mine safety rules and regulations.

As far as an unelected board setting public policy, that occurs all the time in government.  Most of our laws are not written and drafted by legislative bodies but created in response to legislation by unelected bureaucracy.  The technical expertise needed in many areas of law is outside the parameters of what legislators can or should try to accomplish.  I do not want a legislator telling me what food is safe for me to eat no more than I want the CEO of Dell computes coming to work on my PC.  As a society we can certainly challenge these regulations and voters now have the opportunity to vote for or against those that appointed the health board but the county health department was well within its role to set these regulations.  

This is without doubt a fascinating public policy question and one where I think the Kanawha County Health Department made the correct decision.  I have stated the main reasons why I think the decision was sound but I am interested in what you think.  Feel free to comment in support or against the Kanawha County bar smoking ban.

Jeremiah :: SMOKED OUT: ARE SMOKING BANS AN INFRINGEMENT UPON CIVIL LIBERTIES?
Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email

Jeremiah (4.00 / 1)
I've heard complaints about it hurting bars, but I know many people, including myself, who quit going to bars because we got sick of the smoke. In places that have banned smoking, I've heard it actually leads to an increase in business.

As far as the civil liberties of smokers, I'd say someone's civil liberty to smoke where they want in a building ends where my right to have clean air begins. You can't fire up a grill in a bar to cook your own hotdogs, so why does someone think they're guaranteed the right to fire up a cigarette?

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.


cutting to the bone (4.00 / 1)
The issue I am really trying to delve into is whether or not the government should tell someone that they cannot make a decision that might harm them.  For instance, if a bar owner operates his or her own bar without employees then I feel that owner should be allowed to permit smoking.  If it is not a worker safety issue (which I argue that it is) then it is a question of personal choice and ultimately freedom.  This latter point concerns me.

Personal choice (0.00 / 0)
Interesting hypothetical with the single bar owner with no employees. I wonder how many are like that? One way to view it is you receive a liquor license just like you receive a motorcycle license. Law says you have to wear a helmet. The person owns the motorcycle, but has no choice in the matter. In that case it can be argued that the person's personal decision could end up costing all of us as insurance payers much more money because of his decision not to wear a helmet and risk a catastrophic head injury. But a bar owner's risk is the same as another smokers in your hypothetical. Interesting question to think about.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
drawing lines in the gray (0.00 / 0)
It really is a difficult balance when weighing personal choice versus public interest.  Your example of motorcycle helmet laws is well taken but could this same logic be used to ban smoking altogether since smokers end up costing all of us as insurance payers as well.  In fact, you could use this same logic to ban all types of "dangerous" activities.  

The reason I feel a single bar owner operating his establishment and allowing smoking is different is because he has made the choice- for better or worse.  Workers should not be subjected because they do not have the means to make the decision regarding working conditions.  As a result, we as a society have a great interest in protecting their health.  However, the owner has the power to decide his own fate and if he makes a decision that puts his longterm health at risk then so be it.      


[ Parent ]
The law in California specifcally exempts business with no employees (0.00 / 0)
Thus all willing employees become shareholders in the new business and can continue to work at the bar that offers smoking. Each has accepted the second hand hazard by agreeing to become owners. If not they lose their job. Some choice.

Smoking on airlines was pushed out by the union representing  flight attendants. I can remember stewardess giving me a four pack as a teenager on cross-country flights. Dana Reeves died of lung cancer. She was a lounge singer but a  non-smoker. Definitely second hand smoke exposure.

I always have interesting arguments with my little brother over personal choice and danger issues. You know, the bootstraps versus no boots kind of discussions. He rides a bike (rice burner) and does not particularly like the California helmet law. He figures if and where he puts his gray matter on the road is his business and choice. He has wonderful health care as a DOD employee, but our part in paying that does not figure into his Western philosophy.

He broke his pelvis before he was married, and his wife put a brake on this hobby after they had kids. Since he had only two kids they have been "empty-nesters" for a while now.

Their last vacation was a road trip to various National Parks on the Suzuki. He does not like restrictions on access to parts of federal lands to only hikers and horses. I am sure we will get into a discussion this weekend over the recent hands-free legislation.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
Bar Owners Still Pissed (0.00 / 0)
In the Gazette today:

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Angry bar owners railed against Kanawha County's two-week-old expanded smoking ban Thursday, saying it's devastating their businesses.
Bar and gambling parlor owners threatened to file a class-action lawsuit if the Kanawha-Charleston Board of Health doesn't rescind the new regulations. About 40 bar owners and patrons attended the health department meeting in Charleston.
"Everybody here is really hurting," said John Carney, owner of The Blue Parrot bar in downtown Charleston. "It's really hurting us financially."
Bar owners said business has dropped at least 30 percent since the smoking ban took effect July 1. Video lottery sales have taken a bigger hit, they said.
When customers find out they can't smoke, they vow to never come back, bar owners told health board members.
"You're certainly taking away my business," said Cynthia Henson, co-owner of Griff's in South Charleston. "This is very difficult on us. We're going to lose everything. If people don't like smoking, they don't have to come into my establishment."
Keith Jenkins, owner of the Kanawha City Cantina, offered to put a large red sign on his bar's front door, warning the public that people were smoking inside.
"You guys are telling me how to run my business, and that's not fair," Jenkins said.
Other bar owners complained that when their smoking patrons went outside to smoke last weekend, Charleston police officers chased them back inside, threatening them with arrest.
"Whose health are you really concerned about?" said Dick Nalle, who owns MacNalley's Pub in Cross Lanes. "Tell me what you're getting out of it. Who are you saving?"
"We're concerned about the health of everyone," responded Brenda Isaac, the health board's president.
Health department officials said they've investigated several complaints about smoking in bars and gambling parlors during the past two weeks. No warnings have been issued.
The department plans to give businesses at least one warning before filing a complaint in Kanawha County Magistrate Court. Bars and gambling parlors face fines of $200 to $1,000 if they're found guilty of violating the smoking ban.
The expanded ban also prohibits smoking at the Tri-State Racetrack & Gaming Center in Cross Lanes. No smoking violations have been reported at the track.
Ivan Neely told health board members he frequents several bars in Charleston, and sales have dropped dramatically at each.

"If your goal was to put 75 small business owners out of business, you are succeeding," Neely said. "You are devastating small businesses."
Bar owners noted that health board members are appointed by the Kanawha County Commission and Charleston City Council. They vowed to take their complaints to local politicians.
"You're putting people out of business," said Steve Atkins, who owns the Village Café in Sissonville. "It's crazy. It's ridiculous."
Carol McCormick, an accounting technician with the Health Department, reminded health board members that they promised to review the smoking ban's financial impact on local bars.
"You've got to listen to these people," McCormick said. "You need to get the numbers from the bar owners and take a second look and look at a revision."
Health board members said they would review any information presented.
"We're not telling anyone they can't smoke," Isaac said. "We're telling them their smoke hurts other people."



Premium Advertiser

blog advertising is good for you

Welcome!

( Home )
Menu

Click here to join!

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


About
- About WVaBlue.com
- Send us news at wvablue@gmail.com
-  Subscribe in a reader

Advertisers


Support WVaBlue

Active Users
Currently 0 user(s) logged on.

Search




Advanced Search


Current CO2 level in the atmosphere

Proudly displaying the West Virginia Red, White, Blue, Green and Orange.

Join me at http://www.350.org


WVa Democrats
  • Sen. Jay Rockefeller
  • Sen. Joe Manchin III
  • Joe Manchin for Senate (2010/2012)
  • Rep. Nick Rahall (WV-03)
  • Secretary of State Natalie Tennant
  • Auditor Glen Gainer
  • Treasurer John Perdue
  • Agriculture Commissioner Gus Douglass
  • Attorney General Darrell V. McGraw
  • Senate President Earl Ray Tomblin, acting as Gov.
  • Declared Candidates
  • Jeff Kessler
  • John Perdue
  • Natalie Tennant
  • Earl Ray Tomblin
  • Rick Thompson

  • Copyright 2011 West Virginia Blue
    Site content may be used for any purpose without explicit permission unless otherwise specified.
    This site exists thanks to financial support from BlogPAC, dedicated volunteers and participation by members of this community. The views expressed at West Virginia Blue belong solely to their respective authors.
    Powered by: SoapBlox