Al Gore vs "Clean Coal"

electricity (0.00 / 0)

with out coal?.., bite your tongue!

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by: stevewvu @ Thu Dec 04, 2008 at 21:18:13 PM UTC

love the video (0.00 / 0)

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by: Clem Guttata @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 00:18:08 AM UTC

interesting reading (0.00 / 0)

It's a big (PDF) file, but looks to be worth the read: The true cost of coal.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 00:48:51 AM UTC

reality bites (0.00 / 0)

The cold hard truth is that as long as there is coal in the ground in West Virginia, somebody will be mining it and somebody will be burning it (legally or illegally). That is an inalterable truth, folks. Regardless of how you feel about coal - pro or con - arriving at a post-coal economy in our lifetime is a pipe dream. Anybody that believes we can convince capitalists to let BTUs lie in the ground unused is on crack. The world is pillaging the vast oceans for oil thousands of feet beneath the ocean and deep into its floor.  Does anyone really believe that we can prevent the simple extraction of coal from a few feet below the surface in West Virginia?

"Clean coal" (cleaner coal) is kinda like Santa Claus; you may not think he exists, but you damn well better hope he does.

I believe in science. I say our best bet is to get our collective asses to the North Pole asap and find out if Santa is there or not.  

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by: twilight campfighter @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 03:09:10 AM UTC

is easter bunny your new food source, too? (0.00 / 0)

If there is poison nearby do you drink it because it tastes good?

I just finished going through the Greenpeace report on coal (the one I linked to above). The major point of the report is a bunch of bad effects of coal--not just CO2 impacts but also air pollution and other social/environmental issues--create huge negative effects that are not included in cost of coal.

For example, health care costs are higher because there are more people with asthma than there would be if we closed all the coal burning power plants.

If all these effects (called negative externalities in economist lingo) were assessed back to what is paid for ton of coal, we would see the true cost makes it too expensive to use.

That's what the science (in this case, economics) says.

So, if you truly believe in science read the report and read Bill McKibbon's recent work. If you approach it with an open mind, you may also decide we can't afford to wait to act.

On your last point... Big Coal is promoting Clean Coal to argue for the status quo. They just want to delay any alternative action. Meanwhile, if Santa did exist, he'll already be underwater if we don't start acting immediately to replace coal with other energy sources.

Let's say, okay, put even more money into trying to develop a technology that may more may not some day pay off for coal liquefaction and carbon sequestration. (BTW: The feds have done this and pulled the plug on the biggest project because the science wasn't working... also, that process only addresses one of many things that makes coal "dirty".)

What do you advocate doing in the meanwhile--for the next 10-20 years--until we know if that unproven technology will ever work on a production scale?

Would you agree to a moratorium on all new coal-fired plants, a moratorium on any coal-fired plant expansions, and a moratorium on any new coal-mine permits?

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by: Clem Guttata @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:16:19 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is encouranging on the MTR front (4.00 / 1)

At Daily Kos, Bank of America Puts a Deposit on Our Mountains

This summer, after months of conversations, some top executives from Bank of America agreed to accompany NRDC staff on a fact-finding trip to Appalachia. In July we flew them over moonscaped mine sites in West Virginia, took them to Kayford Mountain for a closer look at mountaintop mining, and introduced them to several local residents/activists who are fighting to save their beloved homeland from reckless coal mining companies.

Don Blankenship has been funding Republican candidates in the state. Will he be able to float loans for his own business if one of the big banks stops the flow of credit?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 07:18:09 AM UTC

money quote from BofA policy (0.00 / 0)

This is a huge win. Here's the money quote from new BofA policy:

Bank of America is particularly concerned about surface mining conducted through mountain top removal in locations such as central Appalachia. We therefore will phase out financing of companies whose predominant method of extracting coal is through mountain top removal. While we acknowledge that surface mining is economically efficient and creates jobs, it can be conducted in a way that minimizes environmental impacts in certain geographies.

Major congratulations are in order to the many dedicated activists who have been working at this. (See, for example, our diary back from June, 2007: Asheville NC activists confront Bank of America for coal industry investments.)

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by: Clem Guttata @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:20:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

clem's question (0.00 / 0)

"Would you agree to a moratorium on all new coal-fired plants, a moratorium on any coal-fired plant expansions, and a moratorium on any new coal-mine permits?"

Clem - I would happily agree to all that and more. I grew up in the coal fields, my grandfather was killed inside a coal mine, coal put food on my family table and sent me to college. I believe that MTR is morally wrong, and I wish there had never been a lump of coal in West Virginia ever. I believe the coal industry has done more harm to West Virginia than help - by far. But I'm a political realist. My point is that we do not have the numbers, the funding, or the political capital to enact a moratorium on squat. Capitalism will continue to trump us on coal for the foreseeable future. Thats why I believe we need to look at coal technology research as a potential green industry that can potentially produce green jobs and ultimately produce a better way to use coal. Even marginally better would be a worthwhile improvement.

The Bank of America backing away from MTR is a terrific development and very encouraging. I hope others - like Wells-Fargo - follow suit quickly. But don't interpret them backing away from MTR as backing away from coal. There is still much much money to be made in the coal business; thats reality, and thats our greatest challenge.  

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by: twilight campfighter @ Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 13:15:46 PM UTC