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Sen. Rockefeller says "Clean Coal is Dirty"

by: Clem Guttata

Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 12:13:06 PM EST


Yes, he really said it.

Well, at least he got that right in his rambling statement: clean coal is dirty. Alas, he's more than a bit off on a few other things.

The Wonk Room provides a full transcript and It's getting hot in here helps debunk his mis-statements. What did Sen. Rockefeller get wrong?

- Rockefeller says, "that there are already at work in this country at least two power plants producing electricity from coal that come in at a carbon reduction rate which is right in the middle of where nuclear power is now - that nuclear power doesn't produce carbon dioxide but in other words the emission rate, global warming rate is the same."

As the Wonk Room notes, "There are no coal-fired power plants in the United States that store any significant carbon emissions using carbon capture and sequestration technology (CCS), let alone nearly all carbon emissions. Clean coal does not exist."

Note: Can Sen. Rockefeller please name the two plants he's thinking of? Either we're all misinterpreting his comments or he's counting greenhouse gasses in a much different way than the rest of us.

- The Wonk Room also notes:

Rockefeller repeatedly says that nuclear energy is "considered clean," which is true only if you ask nuclear industry lobbyists.

- More from the Wonk Room:

Rockefeller asked Geithner "why is that we are not talking" about putting CCS research in the economic recovery package. This question is odd, because the package allocates $2.4 billion to carbon capture and sequestration research - more than the $2 billion allocated to all other non-automotive energy efficiency and renewable energy research projects combined.

- Another line from his testimony:

We have a 400 year supply in this country of coal and it doesn't make much sense to me not to try to use American ingenuity, international ingenuity to try to reduce the carbon emissions to approximately where nuclear power is, whatever that is. It's considered clean, so therefore it's got to be pretty good, five, 6%, whatever.

Talking about upping the ante. Not even the coal companies try to sell a 400 year pipe dream. Eighteen months ago a government report said we were down to 100 year supply, not the then often touted 250 year supply. Even then, the report was criticized as unrealistically assuming no growth in coal consumption.

More likely, we are down to 20-40 years of coal reserves, if that.

Clem Guttata :: Sen. Rockefeller says "Clean Coal is Dirty"
Maybe Sen. Rockefeller read the N.Y. Times editorial this week declaring the Collapse of the Clean Coal Myth.

Senator Barbara Boxer of California noted that coal combustion in this country produces 130 million tons of coal ash every year - enough to fill a train of boxcars stretching from Washington, D.C., to Australia. Amazingly, the task of regulating the more than 600 landfills and impoundments holding this ash is left to the states, which are more often lax than not. Ms. Boxer will press the Obama administration to devise rules for the disposal of coal ash as well as design and construction standards for the impoundments.

Just as the T.V.A. was dealing with this mess, Lacy Thornburg, a federal district judge in North Carolina, ordered the giant utility to reduce emissions from four coal-fired power plants that had been sending pollution into North Carolina.

The ruling validated an unusual legal strategy adopted by North Carolina's attorney general, Roy Cooper, who sued the T.V.A. in 2006 on grounds that pollution from its power plants in Alabama, Tennessee and Kentucky constituted a "public nuisance" to the citizens of his state. Mr. Cooper chose this route because the Bush administration had systematically weakened regulations that had been used in the past to force power companies to clean up their emissions.

Taken together, the coal ash disaster and Judge Thornburg's ruling did much to undercut the coal industry's cheery "clean coal" campaign, whose ads would have us believe that low-polluting coal is here or just around the corner.

Now, if only we can get all our Senators to listen to the latest scientific evidence, not industry lobbyist, to chart our future energy policy.

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OK, so if you are right (4.00 / 1)
If all of your arguments are correct (and most are) what do we do to replace coal and the half of electricity output that it provides for???

Unless you want to build about 40 nuclear plants (like McCain did and inherit all of those problems) we cannot replace coal quickly in this country - not to mention the rest of the world's increasing use. Therefore, Jay's chief argument is valid that yes it is dirty, so we've gotta clean it up as much as we can because, like it or not, we are going to be using it in large quantities for a couple more decades.

The current House passed bill (introduced by Obama) has $2.4 billion for clean coal research. Jay's trying to add a bit more. There's still much, much more money in there for alternative energy.

Let's accept this fact and move our energies onto other topics where we can impact change


we can repower America (0.00 / 0)
Here's one plan to repower America with 100% clean electricity within 10 years. It is possible.

It does not require 40 new nuclear plants. It does not require even one new nuclear power plant.

It does not require any new coal plants. In fact, it can be done without any coal-burning electric plants. Full disclosure, the plan does call for two scenarios. In scenario B, it includes the possibility of coal with carbon capture and sequestration (CCS). Scenario A is the one with no coal burning electrical plants.

Back to your comment... I confess, I really couldn't follow Jay's argument. I'm at a loss to say one way or another if his "chief argument is valid."

I can say, I adamantly disagree with the idea that "we've gotta clean it up as much as we can because, like it or not, we are going to be using it in large quantities for a couple more decades."

We have a choice. We can use less power, stop destructive mining for coal, and stop emitting green house gasses that are contributing to catastrophic climate change. (See scenario A above... we do not have to burn coal.)

Personally, I think that $2.4 billion for clean coal research would be better spent on the Repower American plan of "making buildings and homes more efficient, ramping up renewable energy generation, constructing a unified national smart grid, and transitioning to clean and affordable plug-in cars." Thankfully, Obama has included lots of that stuff in the stimulus package as well.

But, if the political reality is we need to spend $2.4 billion to pay off coal interests in order to make progress on real solutions forward, so be it. Still, I'd prefer we spent the money on already proven technology with greater potential for payoff.

(Even better I prefer we had a carbon tax in place that let the market decide which solutions where the most promising to meet a zero-carbon output goal, but that's a really a different topic.)


[ Parent ]
Is this an example of the Peter principle at work? (4.00 / 1)
First we had Sen. Jello Jay as head of the Select Committee on Intelligence. Warrantless wiretapping inside the states, unaccountable fusion centers, and who knows what else. McConnell said "Booh" and Jay said "How high?" Now this out of S. Res 18, the organization of committees.

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION: Mr. Rockefeller (Chairman), Mr. Inouye, Mr. Kerry, Mr. Dorgan, Mrs. Boxer, Mr. Nelson of Florida, Ms. Cantwell, Mr. Lautenberg, Mr. Pryor, Mrs. McCaskill, Ms. Klobuchar, Mr. Udall of New Mexico, Mr. Warner, and Mr. Begich.

Science, huh? Boy, I guess we'll be busy.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


More like a Senority spoils system... (0.00 / 0)
The best thing about him becoming chairman of Commerce/Science/Transportation was putting someone else in charge of Intelligence. It was all part of the grand shift that happened with Sen. Byrd nudged off of Appropriations. The Junior Sen. from W.Va. had to get a plum assignment when the Senior Sen. from W.Va. lost the very best one.

That's a scary list for the S/C/T committee. I don't see many names I can trust to keep the committee heading in the right direction.

If I had to guess, I'd say Sen. Rockefeller felt it necessary bring up clean coal (is dirty) in the Finance committee because his C/S/T committee just isn't feeling the love.


[ Parent ]
What does Treasury Sec. have to do with Dirty Coal? (4.00 / 1)
Jay Rock's rambling testamony is even more obtuse when you consider his nominee is up for treasury sec......doesn't really make sense to me.  He's lying about two plants burning coal that are sequestering it....not happening now or in the foreseable future.  Why do we (taxpayers) have to provide the coal industry with engineers and scientists to solve their problem?  Why doesn't coal spend some of their ill-gotten gains on there own research?  They are too greedy that's why.

Sen. Rockefeller press release (4.00 / 1)
I just noticed there was a press release from Sen. Rockefeller's office about this hearing (rec'd via email).

For Immediate Release
Contact: Steven Broderick

January 22, 2009

ROCKEFELLER CONTINUES PUSH TO INCLUDE INVESTMENTS IN CLEAN COAL AS PART OF ECONOMIC STIMULUS

Washington, DC - During the Senate Finance Committee's confirmation hearing for Timothy Geithner to be the next U.S. Treasury Secretary, Senator Jay Rockefeller pressed for a greater investment in clean coal technology in the economic stimulus plan being drafted by the Obama Administration.

At the conclusion of Rockefeller's statement, Treasury-nominee Geithner said that he found the Senator's views on the issue compelling and agreed that it is necessary to use energy more efficiently and in ways that would be less damaging to the environment.

"Coal provides nearly half of our nation's electricity. Electricity from coal powers everything from computers and appliances in our classrooms, homes and workplaces - even our street lights.  Without a reliable source of electricity, our nation will grind to a halt; and, even if we pursue every alternative fuel source as aggressively as possible, they don't come close to offsetting the critical role of coal.

"The United States has more than a 250-year supply of coal, and a lot of it is mined by hard-working people in West Virginia.  As a coal state Senator, I believe that there can be no serious discussions about our energy future or climate change unless we're willing to make immediate, significant, and sustained investments in carbon capture and sequestration.  Advanced coal technologies have to be part of the solution to our nation's energy independence - and should be included as part of economic stimulus."

###

< snark >

Should I be concerned that somewhere between the hearing and the press release we used up 150-years of US coal supply?

Wait... 400 is "more than 250"... my bad!

< /snark >


In the hand written letter to The Barnacle (4.00 / 1)
Jello Jay admitted he was not too good on the stuff he was supposed to know, i.e. are covered by a committee pm which he is a member, without a pile of staff for brains.

Ask the Czechs how voracious coal mining turned out. They have a mix of black and a nasty brown coal, and dying spruce forests. Poland has the biggest European coal reserve, with the Czech Republic second. There is also coal in Slovakia. Sounds like Hitler's first conquests, huh?

The Czechs are decommissioning all the coal fired electric plants by 2010 to meet EU standards. It produces about half their electricity, so that will probably mean "carbon free" nuclear power. Russian gas is used for heating like most of Europe. How about them Putin eyes? They have been planning this for a decade, unlike Romania, so they have a restructuring plan for the glide down worked out with the unions. The good news is, like California, European energy consumption expenditures is going down in relationship to GDP dollars.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
Not Surprising (0.00 / 0)
Gee ... More eastern panhandle citizen criticizing the coal industry in West Virginia. NOT SURPRISING AT ALL. It's pretty easy to bash on something that isn't mined in your area and doesn't provide jobs to your families.  

bluedogdemocratwv (0.00 / 0)
Out of curiosity, where do you live? What county in West Virginia? How has the economy there fared in the last 5, 10, 20, or 50 years?

Has the population prospered in proportion to its natural resource wealth? What's the quality of living like? Poverty, life expectancy, health care... how are things there?

Just taking a wild guess, but if your county is like most any other with a lot of coal mining, the residents have been screwed over pretty royally by the mining companies.

It's long past time to diversify our economy in a meaningful way and start preparing West Virginia for the post-carbon energy era.


[ Parent ]
Let it begin ... (0.00 / 0)
Kanawha County now and grew up in the northern panhandle.

What do you have in mind?? Some wind farms that employ maybe 30 people with the average salary of $35k a year? Compared to an average sized coal mine that employees between 200-400 with an average salary of $50-$75k a year.

I understand your argument and the argument of everyone else that doesn't benefit in the wallet from the coal industry but at this time there is no alternative for the displaced workers that getting rid of coal would cause and you can't put all those coal miners out of work until one is developed.

Let me ask you. Did you have a good middle class life because your father worked in a union coal mine? Were you able to go to a private school in West Virginia because your father made great money in a coal mine?

Usually the people that bash on coal are the ones whose lives won't be adversely effected by getting rid of the industry. (before you even comment, i know your life will be effected because of the damange it's causing our country and blah blah)

 


[ Parent ]
... (0.00 / 0)
Also what industries do you have over in the Eastern Panhandle??!! Other than being conveniently located near metro areas and Washington DC.  

[ Parent ]
I drive by (4.00 / 1)
Aker and Quad and Capitol Cement (now Essroc) and Continental Brick
Horse racing, Summit Point racing, national homeopathy factory, Bath
orchards and golf and WVU Hospital complexes and Shepherd University
do we get any credit for the Coast Guard, VA, IRS, NCTC, USDA research jobs?
My family got to the middle class here through Corning, Perfection Garment (union), Mussleman and Bell Telephone (union)

State tourism brings in $. Do you think they might come for the rivers and the mountains?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
Biggest Problem for EP is Charleston (0.00 / 0)
BlueDog missed the point of this argument since our biggest problem in the EP has always been Charleston's reluctance to give us any cred...might be why we're against coal since that's all Charleston thinks about!  Getting over coal will be tough I know but it can be done and it will be done but not without the industry realizing the benefits of doing something different, stop killing WV residents, and joining the fight against global warming/climate change.

[ Parent ]
any ideas? (0.00 / 0)
Everyone is bashing on coal and wants it to end but what are the alternatives RIGHT NOW? WE CAN'T STOP MINING UNTIL WE HAVE INDUSTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED OR ARE STARTING TO BE ESTABLISHED that can evaporate some of the 50,000 plus jobs in West Virginia that are related to the coal industry and that can pay a equivalent salary.

I don't think your looking at the PEOPLE aspect of what coal mining brings to the state and the the coal areas in West Virginia. Sure it would be nice to have all renewable energy in the next 20 years but the structure isn't there and no companies are willing to invest in that structure in West Virginia right now. SO WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSE TO DO?!?!

There's always a problem but no one seems to have a practical solution.  


[ Parent ]
Less than 20K jobs mining coal in WV (0.00 / 0)
Looks like bluedogdemwv got a little carried away on his mining job stats by about 150% that is.  WV coal association and their head spokesmen Bill Raney and MOJO always allude to coal being akin to mom, apple pie, and football but neglect to publicize the fact that nearly 50% of the mined coal goes overseas...mmmm...national security...selling coal overseas...mmmm, how does that jive?  Do we know where (what countries) the coal actually goes?  So lemme get this right, we mine the coal here and bury our streams here so we can keep the lights on....wait....overseas?

[ Parent ]
numbers (0.00 / 0)
2008 Coal Mine Employment (Not including AEP and other power plant employees that rely on coal)

UNDERGROUND - Close to 14k
Contractors - About 13k (thats more than 20k right there)
Independent Prep Plants & Coal Facilities - 3k
Suface Mining (MTR) - 13k

That's more than 40k right there ...

Better check your numbers again  


[ Parent ]
... need up on underground mining (0.00 / 0)
You people confuse the practices of underground mining with surface mining alittle too much ... there's a difference

i can name five counties just off the top of my head without doing any researching that get raw coal from wv and that doesn't include what counties that electricity provides for ... Marshall, Pleasants, Harrison, Putnam, Mason ... i'm sure im forgetting some

what type of energy do you think goes through the outlet which you plug your computer into? ...  


[ Parent ]
No I don't (0.00 / 0)
That is why I referenced the Czech Republic. In concert with the unions, something lacking in many mines now thanks to the likes of Massey, the way out of coal is being negotiated. They are one of the most developed, stable and prosperous post-Communist Eastern European nations.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
MTR not responsible....ever....period! (0.00 / 0)
MTR is irresponsible at best and represents a huge moneymaker for out-of-state owners who export much of their ill-gotten gains overseas and we're left holding the bag of buried and polluted streams, mercury-laden air and dust, compromised political system, and a corrupt state agency.  To say that coal is responsible for 50K jobs is an overestimation in my book but I will check to see if I can come up with a number from a credible source.  A number of coal dependent jobs could be changed from coal to some other greener industry I'm sure.  In fact if we can get our collective brains in gear this could be a win-win for the state, it's citizens, coal execs, and affiliated industries.

MTR not my issue ... (0.00 / 0)
i don't care about MTR like i've said numerous times ... i think it should be done away with as well ... not because the carbon issue but because it tears away our mountains ... im not talking underground .. .

and 50k is a UNDERESTIMATE!!! ... one coal mine in west virginia (McElroy in Marshall Co.) has almost a 1000 people and there are about 200 or so other mines in WV. PLUS you have to factor in the employees who work in the numerous coal power plans ... it's over 50k ... you might want to "buy a new book" ...

yes jobs can be changed but who is going to change them? are all you opponents of the coal industry out there talking to renewable energy companies trying to get them to west virginia? .. there is no short term solution for coal in wv, PERIOD! You just can't wake up one day and decide it has to stop or The Great Depression would look like Disney Land compared to what West Virginia would become (maybe expect in the EP, because there is no minable coal seem OR THERE WOULD BE COAL MINES OVER THERE AND YOUR TUNES WOULDNT BE THE SAME).. and i'm not exaggerating  


[ Parent ]
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