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Big Daddy Sen. Robert C. Byrd

And Justice for all

by: Carnacki

Tue Apr 21, 2009 at 13:45:56 PM EDT


Matthew 25:40: King James Version

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Verily:

The vice president's lawyer advocated what was considered the memo's most radical claim: that the president may authorize any interrogation method, even if it crosses the line of torture. U.S. and treaty laws forbidding any person to "commit torture," that passage stated, "do not apply" to the commander in chief, because Congress "may no more regulate the President's ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield."

That same day, Aug. 1, 2002, Yoo signed off on a second secret opinion, the contents of which have never been made public. According to a source with direct knowledge, that opinion approved as lawful a long list of specific interrogation techniques proposed by the CIA -- including waterboarding, a form of near-drowning that the U.S. government classified as a war crime in 1947. The opinion drew the line against one request: threatening to bury a prisoner alive.

Here's a bit of personal background so you know where I'm coming from: I grew up on a small farm, baling hay, picking corn, playing in the woods and the creeks, swimming in the pond. I played football and had a reputation as a hard-hitting defensive back and I played pickup games of basketball with a hoop nailed to the side of the barn. I had a childhood straight out of a Norman Rockwell painting. I grew up believing in the United States.

From early on, I knew the country was not perfect. I was a youngster during the Vietnam War. Some of my earliest memories are images of that dreadful conflict.

People who love with a blind eye to flaws do not truly love, but instead fall for illusions. Let me be clear on this point, I had no illusions about the United States. Yet I still grew up loving my country. I watched the fireworks with awe during the Bicentennial in 1976. I wept when the USA Hockey team performed a miracle in 1980.  I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance at events because I took that pledge and I've never broken it and I think it is wrong to repeat these words by rote until they become meaningless: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." Those words should mean something instead of just mindless utterances before a public event. "Justice for all" means not only people have a chance at justice when wrong, but all are held accountable to justice and not above the law.

That's why I found officially sanctioned torture by our highest officials so shocking. This was not the activity worthy of a great nation. Torture was conducted by totalitarian regimes that we viewed as pariah nations.

Yet there is no doubting that our nation did torture people. It certainly was not to gather information. The traditional interrogation methods worked. Those conducting the interrogations did not want to use torture. Torture was approved by President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney for sadistic reasons so could feel they were "tough" leaders to overcompensate for the fact they both evaded the Vietnam War even though they supported it.
There can be no compromise in torture. I do not care if people believe President Obama risks too much politically. What is the value of winning politically if we lose our soul as a people?

This is not a political fight. This is about doing what is right. This is about defending the United States of America.

From the very beginning of our nation's history, our Founding Fathers opposed torture. As Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote in 2005:

Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.

"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements ... was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."

The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.

Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.

Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren.... Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this - Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

There are ideals worth fighting for and even dying for. Many of our brethren have died throughout our history from Valley Forge to Pickett's Field to the beaches of Omaha to the sky above Shanksville, Pa., for our nation. A nation that condones torture is not a nation worthy of their sacrifices.

There is no other issue more important than this. We DO NOT TORTURE. Those who claim we risk too much cannot point to a single attack thwarted by torture. We risk much more as a people by performing torture than by not resorting to such barbarity.

We are a nation of laws. This is not about retribution. This is about justice. I see that President Obama, despite earlier statements by his staff this week, is open to that. We need the appointment of a special prosecutor and thorough investigations of the crimes.

No offense to President Obama, this is not his decision to make, but rather that of the chief law enforcement officer of the land. Politicization of the Justice Department was one of the biggest failings of the previous administration and President Obama should not be prejudging the issue.

Though administration officials declared that CIA interrogators who followed Justice's legal guidance on torture would not be prosecuted, that does not mean the inquiries are over. Senior Justice Department lawyers and other advisers, who declined to be identified discussing a sensitive subject, say Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. is seriously considering appointing an outside counsel to investigate whether CIA interrogators exceeded legal boundaries-and whether Bush administration officials broke the law by giving the CIA permission to torture in the first place. Even if Holder takes a pass, Sen. Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is still pushing for a "truth commission." In a democracy, the wheels of justice grind on-and the president, for good reason under the rule of law, does not have the power to stop them.

I am not in favor of the Lynndie England's being punished as scapegoats for those who drafted the policies. The people who drafted the policies should be the ones to pay for their deeds.

This isn't a losing proposition despite what some claim:

The assertion that "most Americans" don't want investigations -- whether made by media stars to argue against investigations or Obama supporters to justify the immunity the President wants to extend to everyone involved -- is factually false.

A USA Today poll from February -- headlined:  "Poll: Most want inquiry into anti-terror tactics" -- found "two-thirds of those surveyed said there should be investigations into allegations that the Bush team used torture to interrogate terrorism suspects and its program of wiretapping U.S. citizens without getting warrants," and "four in 10 favor criminal investigations."  A Gallup poll from mid-February found that between 60 to 70% of Americans favor investigations for torture, warrantless eavesdropping and DOJ politicization, and that majorities of Democrats (and more than 40% of all Americans and independents) favor criminal prosecutions.  Only small percentages of independents -- between 25-38% -- oppose investigations for each of the three lawbreaking allegations.  A Washington Post/ABC News poll from January similarly found that a majority of Americans (50-47%) -- and an overwhelming majority of Democrats (69%) -- believe that the Obama administration should investigate whether the Bush administration's treatment of detainees was illegal.  While polls can vary based on how the questions are asked, every poll shows substantial percentages favoring investigations.

Sign the petition here to ask for the appointment of a special prosecutor.
...

More of the many posts in long opposition to torture on this site can be found here.

Carnacki :: And Justice for all
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And Justice for all | 40 comments
what the hell (0.00 / 0)
torture the ksm's of the world...

why? out of what perversion does this come? are you willing to PERSONALLY participate? (0.00 / 0)
george washington refused to stoop to the level of the british. we put the japanese on trial.

how many cats did you torture as a kid?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
no (0.00 / 0)
particular perversion...and i didnt torture cats as a kid but i have killed many deer between mid october and the end of december each year...

[ Parent ]
steve (0.00 / 0)
What separates us from the KSM's of the world if we do that?

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
in some respects nothing (0.00 / 0)
separates us...sometimes you have to get down in the gutter...i would torture a clergyman if i had reason to believe one of my family members was in danger and i cannot separate that conviction from the danger posed to others...the thing that does concern me however is the gray area surrounding the decision as to when to do it..how imminent must the danger be and on what scale...i still wrestle around with that..but make no mistake about it...i support torturing ksm...

[ Parent ]
steve (4.00 / 1)
You're wrong for at least two reasons:
1. Outside of Hollywood scripts, torture doesnn't work. There's nothing to wrestle around with. The leading intelligence and military officials have said it's ineffective.

2. I'm surprised by the low opinion you have of your nativve country. We should always strive to be the shining beacon on a hill. Crawl in the gutter and you're the same as what is there. Then the terrorists really do win because the country is at their level.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.


[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
thanks to obama only releasing selective memos i guess we dont know whether it works or not....the issue is given the circumstances does it have a chance to work and am i willing to explore that chance...and i didnt say get in the gutter just for shits and giggles like ksm and his ilk...i can rationalize in my mind the torture of ksm if it has the possibility of prevent death...and i dont consider that i have a "low opinion" of my country...on the contrary, i prefer to think the more civilized country or individual recognizes when it is apporopriate as opposed, again, to when its done for sadistic pleasure...

[ Parent ]
steve (0.00 / 0)
That's just it. It was done for pure sadism.

KSM gave up more information under traditional methods and zero productive information after the 186 waterboarding sessions began.

Torture produces propaganda, not useful information:

Two witnesses with substantial military experience told a U.S. House subcommittee in no uncertain terms today that waterboarding is not only torture but an ineffective method of obtaining information from terrorism suspects. A third military witness on active duty was expected to testify but was barred from doing so by the Pentagon.

Additionally, the two witnesses both attributed the U.S. decision to use waterboarding on some terrorism suspects to military higher-ups who have watched too many television dramas on the topic and have little real-life experience with conducting interrogations, reports CBS News.

Such "coercive" interrogation techniques aren't as effective as those that persuade suspects to cooperate, because harsher methods often elicit false information, Col. Steven Kleinman told a House Judiciary constitutional subcommittee today. He is a senior intelligence officer and military interrogator for the U.S. Air Force Reserves.

However, at this point it will be very difficult to win the hearts and minds of suspects, testified Malcolm Wrightson Nance, because of what many in the Middle East perceive as malicious U.S. abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay, among other issues. Nance is a former U.S. Navy instructor who conducted prisoner of war and hostage survival programs and has himself undergone waterboarding as part of his training.

"Waterboarding is torture, period," he testified. "I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor."

If you truly believe it's so effective and necessary, why not support the police torturing all suspects they come in contact with? Forget the people already charged, torture everyone to find out if they're a danger to somebody.

Everything that has come out from memos and the CIA's IG report back this up.

It's a disgrace to the country and shame on you for supporting it.



When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.


[ Parent ]
just (0.00 / 0)
because ksm allegedly didnt give up useful info doesnt mean it was done for pure sadism...it does i suspect to somebody like you who believes what you want to believe...theres a difference between a man who master-minded the slaughter of thousands of people, who is an enemy combatant and a potential threat to large scale murder and an arrest of even a suspected serial killer here in the united states...and that you cant see that is unfortunate....that dick cheney can makes him a hero imo...btw, i rarely read the real long posts on here because i visit your site while doing other things but you lose alot of credibility on this subject when you posit that bush and cheney authorized torture to make up for some perceived inadequacy from vietnam...while i disagree with alot of your politics i respect your convictions and admire the manner in which you express them...but that was out there man, WTF???....

[ Parent ]
torture for intel or torture without info (0.00 / 0)
i'm sorry, you cannot have it both ways
we have someone in custody
the law determines how they are treated, not men
mental gymnastics to justify this means you don't really buy it either

ask the WWII interrogator
the info you get is from good interrogation
i suspect that will be the truth about gitmo

the collateral damage to these united states is not without consequences
torture demeans the tortured and the torturer
the only reason for torture is torture

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
in my world (0.00 / 0)
the only time the end justifies the means
is when the end is love


NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
and (0.00 / 0)
ksm was so full of love...i can see where he'd reciprocate with yours..

[ Parent ]
the invisible pink unicorn never said it was easy (0.00 / 0)
in what way has repeating drowning six times a day for a month made you feel better about yourself?
using doctors and psych. in the same way as the nazis to enhance the torture experience, priceless.
do you have your personal reservation to room 101 yet?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
obviously it didn't work or otherwise why was it "drown and repeat" 183 times? (0.00 / 0)
i have killed my share of groundhogs and we help another butcher meat. OT.

wha if someone wants to torture george bush, maybe the way he tortured frogs, his siblings and frat brothers all rolled up into one, to tell us why he let bin laden slip off his radar and wreck the economy with the iraq war? maybe he would tell us were all the money went.

"Many other factors may have added to this storm -- an expensive war in Iraq, short-selling, high energy prices, and irrational pressure on corporations, money managers and hedge funds to show increasingly better returns," offered Dimon.

i just watched a tv movie about a catholic irena sendler, who helped 2500 jewish children be hidden with polish families. one duaghter and a jewish friend took this to the wv state social studies fair more than five years ago.

she was torture by the nazis. beaten on the soles of her feet repeatably. she never gave up where the children were or who else helped her.

many of what was obtained under the bush/cheney torture regime were false leads and wasted resources. do you really want the full record or just what dick wants?

what a short memory you have of the colored code alerts that corresponded to elections and john ashcroft, camera hog, claiming every one was the worst of the worst and that the return of jeebus was just around the corner after the terrorists blew up all the cows.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


[ Parent ]
stevewvu. don't forget they tortured a US citizen (0.00 / 0)
and he could not participate in his own defense
pleading guilty was the only way he thought it would stop
do you want obama with his power?
I'll edit pastor martin for brevity:
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.



NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
The only point of torture is torture (4.00 / 1)
I am waiting for the OPR report. Sen. Whitehouse said it should be out in a few weeks. Glad Rambo's gabfest with George on Sunday was walked back by POTUS today.

Cheney desire for released of previously classified data of his choosing means he has still not learned any humility, even after all those grandchildren. I know that torture also harms the torturer.

I also hope those in the medical profession, the doctors involved in caloric monitoring, and the psychologists contributing to suggestions for Room 101 are also brought to the docket.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


most cogent analysis of legal situation (0.00 / 0)
Matthew Yglesias discusses The Rule of Law

Too short to excerpt... here's the teaser:

Phil Zelikow, formerly a top aide to Condoleezza Rice at the State Department and a torture opponent has an excellent post on the nonsensical legal position the Obama administration seems to have twisted itself into:


We made it through much tougher times than these without ever resorting to torture. (4.00 / 2)
The U.S. proudly played a major role in the Nuremburg trials, so it is mind boggling for me to even imagine that torture is something that a President would ever sanction!

Not too long ago a former interrogator revealed just how moronic Dick Cheney's position on torture is.

"I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. ... It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me - unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.
source

Former Abu Ghrab investigator Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba has long been calling for accountability for official U.S. detention and interrogation policies. Taguba has testified before Congress that Bush's torture policies were both misguided and illegal.

Misguided indeed. Two studies, one by the Saudi government and one by an Israeli think tank, which "painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States" have found that most foreign fighters in Iraq were not terrorists before the Iraq war, but were "radicalized by the war itself." The Boston Globe reported that the studies "cast doubt" on claims by President Bush that terrorists have "seized on the opportunity to make Iraq the 'central front' in a battle against the United States." source

On the other hand, we have Rush Limbugh selling Club Gitmo tee shirts to kool-aid swilling rightwing morons like Don Surber and comparing the torture of war prisoners to fraternity pranks.

Stevewvu, I grew up on a farm and I've also done my fair share of hunting, and have enjoyed lots of venison stew over the years. But I've never found it necessary to torture an animal as your beloved sociopathic pal George Bush reportedly has.

I can't even imagine how anyone could be so twisted that they'd ever think that torturing a fellow human being is justifiable.

Stevewvu, is it that you're just plain scared?


I know my opinion on this matter (0.00 / 0)
is not shared by many on here....but I'll try one more time.

This is a bad move politically. Did anyone see the White House Press Briefing today? This issue is already becoming a circus. It is clear the press is willing and prepared to paint this as a political issue. Again, does anyone think that moderate/swing voters are going to stay on board with this if say it drags on for months/years?
It is naive to suggest this isn't a political issue....the lines have already been drawn, and shockingly they are right down party lines.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but pay attention to stevewv on this (not his idiotic position that torture is ok)....we are setting ourselves up to be seen as the party who care more about KSM than the safety of the American public. Before people get hysterical about that comment, I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!! But please explain to me how this doesn't play perfectly into the GOP's hands on their constant desire to call us weak on defense.

Whether or not some high-level Bush officials get prosecuted over this pails in comparison to ensuring that people have adequate health coverage, giving our children a better education, and moving this country forward on several other fronts. Let's stop distracting ourselves from ensuring a better future by not being able to get over the past.


japhyryder79 (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure if you read the diary or not, but I'll point to the poll numbers that show people back the investigations.

There's a lot of crimes committed in this country every day. Those police investigations use up a lot of resources. Should we should move forward and not let the past get in our way of how that money could be spent in the future?

We should make sure our children have a better future. Does that mean a future in a nation that condones torture?

There's political risk involved with everything apparently. Should we ignore the independents who are sick and tired of the Democrats who'd sacrifice principles for the sake of politics? Should we risk alienating the Democratic base, since as you claim the lines are drawn down party lines? How would Obama win without his base or do only Republican presidential candidates get to play to their base?



When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.


[ Parent ]
Two more (0.00 / 0)
You've made your position clear. Do you really think after reading this diary I'm going to stop? And 2) the fact you find yourself saying listen to stevewvu, doesn't that give you pause that you're the one who should re-think this?

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
You really think those poll numbers are going to hold (0.00 / 0)
after several months of this?

We do not condone torture, those practices have been ended and our president has denounced them. Pretty simple

You're right, there is political risk in everything. I can't help but think it would make more sense to take those risks for things that can help the country prosper in the future. Republicans lost (in part) by catering to their base.....not something I want to see us repeat.

Sorry for thinking practically, but health care, the economy, education, the environment, etc. effect me and you every single day.....and personally I feel this administration will be a total failure if we don't succeed on even one of those fronts due to wasted energy on settling scores from the past.

No, I don't expect you to stop. This is obviously something that upsets you. I just don't see how pursuing this improves U.S. citizens lives, wins us elections, or even changes what was done.

As for me saying to listen to stevewvu.....it's pretty simple, know your enemy (or opposition). We are setting them up with softballs down the middle of the plate on this one.

If I'm wrong...if we spend the next year or two rehashing what the Bush administration did....and it doesn't distract from the things that will really help the country improve for the future, I will aknowledge my error.
 


[ Parent ]
No I don't think the poll numbers will hold (0.00 / 0)
I think they'll go UP as more comes to light about what was done if Democrats and the administration actually take a stand for something instead of putting politics above principle. The punditry told us Democrats had to do something about Social Security or be killed in the polls. Instead as Democrats stood fast on the issue, their approval numbers went up despite the constant barrage from Bush and the GOP and the corporate owned media.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
OK....like I said (0.00 / 0)
if I'm wrong after this drags on for months/years, I'll admit my error.
Social Security is different and you know it...it effects peoples everyday lives in a way that the PAST use of torture doesn't.

Notice the emphasis on PAST.....I don't think I or anyone else has said we somehow shouldn't oppose torture. We have ended the use of torture!

All of the issues I have repeatedly mentioned are principled stances for Democrats to take, and ones that will/could result in real solutions for American people.


[ Parent ]
Have we ended it? (4.00 / 1)
Go back to the Iran Contra crew. They were the same ones the GOP put in this time. How do you end it unless there are consequences. Because Obama is going to be president only two terms and who is to say we're not going to have a GOP president after that who'll bring in the same crew as Bush and the torture will resume if none of them face consequences for their actions?


When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
We have been making excuses (0.00 / 0)
for Republican excesses the entire time I have been married.
We have six children and two grandchildren now.
Isn't enough enough?

End of rant.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
I think it's a good idea to listen to steve in this sense... (0.00 / 0)
this is not an issue that's going to give us any pro-Obama traction here in West Virginia. It may even lose us some of "hold-their-noses-and-vote-for-him-anyway" WV Democrats from last fall. And, make no mistake, there were plenty of them.

That being said, I don't think that concern on an issue of this magnitude should be an overriding one. Just as I don't think that how the climate-change/carbon cap-and-trade issues will play out here in WV should be overriding ones simply because they aren't helpful in growing Obama's base in WV to one that's a working majority.

I think our strategy should be to expand the working progressive Democratic Party base we have in WV.

That's the opportunity the president (and now OFA) give us.

As for torture, I hope Holder looks into it, and then, given that his job description has or should have historical and Constitutional independence even from the president who appointed him, says, "Yep. I'm asking for an independent special prosecutor."

As I earlier speculated in this diarrhea:

http://www.wvablue.com/diary/4...

But, if that happens and it plays out that, say, CIA career professionals get put in the dock and a malefactor like Cheney doesn't, then I think share Japh's worries could prove to be prophetic.


[ Parent ]
benjamin (4.00 / 1)
I recall being told by many that it was a waste of time to try to gain any support in WV for Obama and that we shouldn't bother and instead work in Virginia or other states. Now Darrell McGraw, Herb Snyder and others who won in part because some of us stayed and urged people to vote for Obama and a straight Democratic ticket might not say we wasted our time. But do you really think this issue is going to hurt us more than Obama's stance on the environment and MTR? To say we shouldn't oppose torture because it'll hurt Obama here politically may be the poorest excuse yet.


When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
That's not what I said. In fact, I said quite the opposite. (0.00 / 0)
I said we shouldn't let potential WV opposition to prosecuting those who tortured stand in the way of principled support for that any more than we should let opposition in WV to the Obama administration's stances on climate change and carbon cap-and-trade stand in the way of principled progressive support for those policies.

I'll admit, I wrote it hastily before getting ready to leave for work, but I think if you'll read my post again, you'll see that's what I said.

(As I said the other day: benjaminwalter is me at home; epbluefan is me at work; sorry for any confusion.)


[ Parent ]
epbluefan (4.00 / 1)
Thanks for clearing that up on the WV opposition. I meant to write the other day I have no problem with using two accounts. I don't know if you saw my note the other day in response to your hk link, but are you interested in writing a post on education?


When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

[ Parent ]
Carnacki: (0.00 / 0)
No problem at all, my friend.

I was, indeed, going to take you up on that offer, and, in fact, started a diary on that on Sunday.

I may yet finish that diary, but, I notice that Senator Wells' remarkable candid and detailed post on that Hippie Killer thread/topic was withdrawn earlier this week after having been posted around midnight last Thursday/Friday.

And it clearly had been written by Erik. It called out AFT head, Judy Hale, and in no uncertain terms. Moreover, it's highly unusual for an elected official to have the nerve to post under his own name on Hippie Killer, a site not known for the prevalence of friendly attitudes towards the governor.

But I strongly suspect that Senator Wells did want to publicly thank HK and others there, and wanted his account of his meeting with Ms. Hale seen. If he later had the post withdrawn, it speaks to Erik's political perspicacity.


[ Parent ]
In other words... (0.00 / 0)
discretion often is the better part of valor.

:)


[ Parent ]
addressing your concerns (0.00 / 0)
You are not alone in these concerns.

buhdydharma responds: Answering Torture Prosecution Concerns


[ Parent ]
I will be smiling while watching the Republicans defend torture. (4.00 / 1)
And I don't buy the argument that if we did not act like others in the lists of gruesome tyrants in history, that that makes this country a pansy, and an advantage to those wanting to practice sadism in the name of revenge. The rule of law over the petty weaknesses of men is what had always made this country the best.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

[ Parent ]
Maybe Cheney should have... (0.00 / 0)
kept his effing mouth shut.

Armed Service Committee report (4.00 / 1)
is reported to show that these techniques were readied for use before anyone was in custody and before they were "approved".

Previously secret memos and interviews show CIA and Pentagon officials exploring ways to break Taliban and al-Qaeda detainees in early 2002, up to eight months before Justice Department lawyers approved the use of waterboarding and nine other harsh methods, investigators found.

This is the only drip, drip, drip that is worthy of this country.

The top officials [George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director] briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective.


It also seems to imply that some of the reason was to find the connection between Iraq and 9/11. This connection did not exists and it would seem to explain why there were so many uses of waterboarding. and what is another saying, if you do not learn the lessons of history you are doomed to repeat its mistakes? Sick.

And if you don't think that some voted for Pres. Obama in hopes that all this dirty laundry would be aired, and those like David Addington would be shamed and held accountable for destroying the rule of law in this country, that special something that is part of the fabric of what makes us that shining beacon on the hill, then I am misreading my independent and Republicans friends.

This is Sen. Levin's committee. Sen. Feinstein at Intelligence is going to hold hearings. Sen. Leahy will look at this from his Judiciary chair. Maybe as a Catholic I am to enamored with the power of confession and reconciliation. If we ignore this, how can we look ourselves in the mirror? Torture demeans both the tortured and the tortured.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


Pariah nation (0.00 / 0)
There's also a price to pay if you develop a reputation as a pariah nation.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

stevewvu, anybody, remember why the memos were released? (0.00 / 0)
Thanks to obama only releasing selective memos

Oh how quickly we forget the facts. Pres. Obama's DOJ went before the courts to continue with the position that Mr. Bushs' DOJ had maintained, that the memos would not be released. They lost in court. That thorny rule of law, not men, hits us in the forehead again.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_...

The Department of Justice will today release certain memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel between 2002 and 2005 as part of an ongoing court case. These memos speak to techniques that were used in the interrogation of terrorism suspects during that period, and their release is required by the rule of law.

It was a Freedom of Information Act request made while Mr. Bush was still President. Use of "selective", the ones chosen by one party only, is not the same as "certain", a specific number previously defined as those requested.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30...

The memos produced by the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel were released to meet a court-approved deadline in a lawsuit against the government . . . . .

Cheney abhors this law. Its passage was a result of Watergate.

He was Gerald Ford's young Chief of Staff. As VPOTUS he did everything possible to not comply for eight years, on anything. This like other things were left in the Article III courts was Dubya n' Dick left town.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance


And Justice for all | 40 comments
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