Open thread

Why is Lynndie England in prison? (0.00 / 0)

And the people who authorized and ordered torture not?

It's like arresting the corner crack dealer, and letting the known drug kingpin walk.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

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by: Carnacki @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 14:16:09 PM UTC

She's not in prison, (0.00 / 0)

she's...I believe living outside of Fort Ashby, WV or somewhere around there. She's been out for a while

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by: japhyryder79 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 14:39:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The point is (0.00 / 0)

She did the crime, she did the time. You're worried that letting the kingpins go free, we're somehow hurting Obama. That's the same argument that the GOP makes that he can't do anything but focus on the economy and shouldn't try to do anything else.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

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by: Carnacki @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 14:51:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, I was worried about (0.00 / 0)

pointing out that she is no longer in jail.

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by: japhyryder79 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 15:21:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

more accurately (0.00 / 0)

Carnacki, I think what you're saying is: why is Lynddie England still a convicted felon?

It's a little bit early in the term for President Obama to be handing out Presidential pardons, but then again there's a never a good time for him to go back on his campaign promise to turn a new page on the unitary executive constitutional interpretation of the Bush administration.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 14:58:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Clem (0.00 / 0)

She shouldn't be pardoned. She should have company on the felon list.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

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by: Carnacki @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 15:15:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Wood County Schools to teach Bible class (4.00 / 1)

Yep... you heard me right. Yet another attempt by Fundamentalists, whom obviously have failed in their Sunday Schools, to force their theology upon public school students.

Wood County school board OKs Bible class

Board member Tad Wilson says it's a chance for students to get exposure to a broader range of literature.

I bet you $20 that the Protestant Bible will be the only version studied and that Catholic theology will be silenced. If I was an employee of the Diocese (like Nick Casey), I would be raising some hell to ensure that Roman Catholicism is not unduly discriminated against in this course. And, guess what, I'm not even Catholic.

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by: WV26003 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 15:55:42 PM UTC

Whose bible? (0.00 / 0)

Great question... whose bible...

Jefferson Bible, LDS Bible, Judiasm's Torah, it's all the same God, right?

If the goal is to truly to teach spiritual literature, how about a comparative world religion course instead?

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 16:06:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

HA!!!!! (0.00 / 0)

A comparative world religion course....not bloody likely.

It is a great idea and one way to maybe at least appease the people who think we should have Christian Madrassas. For some reason I just can't see "The Wisdom of the Koran" taught in WV public schools....funny to think about though.

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by: japhyryder79 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 17:02:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you for that, from Catholic (0.00 / 0)

Comparative religion class is one thing. Moving Pentecostal Sunday night worship into public schools is another.

The King James Version is such a bad translation, and it is missing some books.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 17:47:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Contact Bishop Bransfield (0.00 / 0)

I'm serious. Contact Bishop Bransfield. Ask him to have Nick Casey investigate this course's intent very carefully to ensure that the traditional Catholic Bible is included.

Protestants have all to often used the public schools to force their theology upon Catholic students. Examples? The Lord's Prayer, the Ten Commandments, etc.

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by: WV26003 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 20:31:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

How about we contact (0.00 / 0)

boardmember Tad Wilson and have him investigate the Establishment Clause? Whether this is "optional" or not doesn't change the fact that it's a public school.
I was serious earlier, I think a course on the history of religion would be fine....but doesn't being "bible" specific sort of cross a line?

WV26003....can you explain what you mean with your examples? I attended 12 years of strict Catholic school and the ten commandments and the lord's prayer where present. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, I just don't understand.

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by: japhyryder79 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 21:39:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Tad Wilson won't care (0.00 / 0)

He believes that the Bible provides a "broad perspective" of literature yet makes no inclusion of every other major religious text.

When public schools still had religious inclusion, they always gave preference to Protestant beliefs over Catholic ones. You would not find Sirach or Maccabees in public school Bibles. The Lord's Prayer always included "for thine is the Kingdom...". And the Exodus 20 enumeration of the Ten Commandments was taught rather than the Deutoronomy 5 enumeration. Purgatory was NEVER mentioned.

As I'm sure you know, the Catholic Lord's Prayer ends with "deliver us from evil", and Catholics use Deutoronomy 5 for their source of the Ten Commandments. Some lutheran sects do as well.  

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by: WV26003 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 22:25:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't care (0.00 / 0)

more of an empty suggestion than anything else.

I now see the difference.....I never really noticed or thought of those differences before.....maybe I was never exposed to the Protestant way or maybe I had just forgotten.  Sister Rita would be ashamed of me

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by: japhyryder79 @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 22:31:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

We always stop reciting the Lord's Prayer (0.00 / 0)

before the other kids, remember? It was audible when a local Catholic official lead the prayer at a meal one time. Four of us stopped, then looked at each other. Our kids had all gone to the local parish school together.

Aren't there a few word differences in the Ten Commandments, too?

Of course, that leaves out transubstantiation and whether we worhsip idols and have horns, huh?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 04:23:24 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

And that's why... (0.00 / 0)

And that's why the Diocese should step in and see to it that no anti-Catholic views are embedded in the Wood County Bible class.

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by: WV26003 @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 14:15:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's the exclusion of the Apocrypha (0.00 / 0)

+ Prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45)
+ Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7)
+ Intercession of saints in heaven (2 Maccabees 15:14)
+ Intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12-15)

Writing DWC now. I remember Dubya and Bob Jones University. Not to take this too far, I also have read about the Notre Dame and KKK rumble of 1924. Hate is learned at home.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 14:48:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

CC to Nick Casey (0.00 / 0)

And, if you feel so inclined, Delegate Orphy Klempa.

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by: WV26003 @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 15:48:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

wrote Nick Casey also (4.00 / 1)

I do remember some very standoffish delegates from Wood County at the state convention in June 2008. They had absorbed every false email hoax about the Sen. Obama. We had our own Harriet Christian right here on the banks of the Ohio. What a name.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 15:54:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I did write both Dems and Diocese (4.00 / 1)

so far only a response from the DWC

personal information redacted

Dear []

I will monitor this situation and also send this to our superintendent
of Catholic Schools, Sr. Elaine Poitras, for her input and advisement.

Thanks so much,
Bryan

Bryan Minor
Executive Director of
Communications & Development
Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston
1300 Byron Street
Wheeling WV 26003

Phone: 304-233-0880 Ext. 263
Toll Free: 888-434-6237 Ext. 263
Fax: 304-233-4086
Web: http://www.dwc.org

Executive Director
West Virginia Catholic Foundation
Web: http://wvcf.dwc.org

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:05 AM
To: Minor, Bryan
Subject: The Diocese of Wheeling Charleston: Wood County Bible Class

This is an inquiry e-mail via http://www.dwc.org from: []

[], []. The recent news that the Wood County School Board has added a "Bible" class in public schools concerns me. There are different translations, and the selection on any one is an implicit endorsement of that sect. A comparative religion class is not beyond the intellect of high school students, and would be of much greater value to our society. I encourage your office to help the Parkersburg Vicariate monitor this development.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Sat Apr 25, 2009 at 17:01:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Impeach Bybee progress report (0.00 / 0)

rec'd via email:

Hi, I wanted to give you a very quick update on our efforts to persuade Congress to begin impeachment hearings against torture architect and 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Jay Bybee.

In less than 48 hours, our campaign has attracted over 10,000 supporters. Those petitions are being delivered to the House Judiciary Committee. And members of Congress are certainly taking notice.

Please forward this email to your friends and ask them to join our campaign:

http://thinkprogress.org/impea...

Yesterday, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) called us to let us know that she believes impeachment hearings are the "proper response." Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) told The Huffington Post, "He ought to be impeached."

And on the Senate side, Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) said we have to "look at" impeaching Bybee. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) called on Bybee to resign, while Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) said "grounds for impeachment can be made" against the Judge.

We will continue to urge members of Congress to begin impeachment hearings against Jay Bybee. Thanks for all your support!

Sincerely,

Faiz Shakir
Editor-in-Chief, ThinkProgress.org

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Apr 22, 2009 at 16:07:48 PM UTC

CIA Interrogators: To prosecute or not? (0.00 / 0)

An important op-ed piece on torture in the New York Times by a former supervisory special agent, Ali Soufan, is strongly recommended reading.

I discovered it by way of teacherken's rec-listed dkos diary from this morning:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

teacherken is a deeply humanitarian writer/blogger. His diaries are frequently rec-listed, and he is one of the driving forces behind the revival of a West Virginia Blue "cousin" in Virginia, Blue Commonwealth.

teacherken says the primary goal of his diary is to promote wide readership of Mr. Soufan's op-ed.

Soufan, who worked with CIA officers in the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah before "enhanced interrogation" techniques were introduced, says:

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn't, or couldn't have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions - all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.

Soufan offers these thoughts on whether or not CIA officials should be prosecuted:

The debate after the release of these memos has centered on whether C.I.A. officials should be prosecuted for their role in harsh interrogation techniques. That would be a mistake. Almost all the agency officials I worked with on these issues were good people who felt as I did about the use of enhanced techniques: it is un-American, ineffective and harmful to our national security.

And this:

My C.I.A. colleagues who balked at the techniques, on the other hand, were instructed to continue. (It's worth noting that when reading between the lines of the newly released memos, it seems clear that it was contractors, not C.I.A. officers, who requested the use of these techniques.)

Soufan's op-ed article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04...

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by: benjaminwalter @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 11:37:15 AM UTC

The Nazi analogy: When the shoe fits... (4.00 / 1)

Clem and I had a brief discussion of this question on Sunday afternoon in his excellent "Torture Logic" diary:

http://www.wvablue.com/diary/4...

In The Guardian yesterday, West Virginia native and liberal Democratic essayist/editor Michael Tomasky, who frequently challenges the "wisdom" of conventional wisdom, said:

...I believe that Nazi analogies should be more permissible in today's political discourse than they are. Not personal comparisons of Politician X to Hitler, because Hitler remains a unique monster; but analogies to Nazi ideology and tactics, when accurate and appropriate.

He made this argument while citing this recent observation by The Atlantic's Andrew Sullivan:

Notice how the Nazis ensured that doctors were present at all times so that they could monitor the captives' response to torture and make sure they didn't die or suffer visible permanent injuries that could embarrass the regime in public (see the Bradbury and Bybee memos for the Bush equivalent). Notice the careful measurement of how many times someone can be beaten (another Cheney innovation). And notice that we are not talking about waterboarding - something even the Nazis excluded from their "enhanced interrogation" methods

Tomasky observes:

We stay away from this because the immediate reflex of everybody, when they hear the word "Nazi," is: gas ovens. In this simplistic formulation, then, employing any Nazi analogy seems to mean that the employer is accusing someone of mass racial murder. But the Nazis did a lot of things besides that.

So, when some of the goals of Bush administration torture policies paralleled those of the Nazi regime, and in at least one key respect appears to have exceeded them...the shoe grotesquely fits.

Score one for Clem.

Tomasky's Want your stomach turned?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm...

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by: benjaminwalter @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 12:26:03 PM UTC

Irena Sendler: Hallmark TV movie from last year rebroadcast. Wonder why? (4.00 / 2)

A Polish Catholic social worker, she was part of the network that hid 2500 Jewish children who lived in the Warsaw ghetto. When she was finally arrested by the Gestapo she was tortured, repeated beaten on the soles of her feet, in an attempt to have her reveal the network. She passed away in 2008 at the age of 98.

The first time I heard about the involvement of doctors and psychologist in designing the torture system and monitoring the prisoners, I did think of Josef Mengele and Nazis. There was a new code of ethics adopted after Nuremberg as a result of this "human experimentation".

I guess Condi and Dubya ignored that memo, too. They must really have believed Turd Blossom and the idea of a "permanent Republican majority". Stevewvu must be so-oo proud.  

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 14:21:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]