Corps of Engineers NWP21 Hearing in Charleston

The Regulation.gov site works about as well as the new GOP site (4.00 / 2)

so I couldn't find anything, but there has to be a way to raise hell about this and try to force them to have another meeting that allows EVERYONE to speak.

We should not let this go.

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by: Bobzim @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 10:24:21 AM UTC

Hungtington District Office contact information (4.00 / 1)

Bobzim -- I know there's other ways to submit comments, too. I'll see if I can find a web link for you for that. Public hearing comments are treated just like the ones submitted via other ways.

To let them know how you feel about how the hearing was conducted, this contact information looks promising. From here:

Questions about the Huntington District? Contact our Public Affairs Office by:

   *  E-mail - Public.Affairs@Lrh01.usace.army.mil

   * Calling
     (866) 502-2570 Toll Free
     (304) 399-5353 Local

   * Writing us at:
     CELRH, Huntington
     502 eighth street
     Huntington, WV
     25701

I think it's an excellent idea for people to tell them how you felt about the way the meeting was run. They will only change how they run future meetings if they get a lot of feedback on this one.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 11:09:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Web commenting on NPW21 (0.00 / 0)

The docket ID is COE-2009-0032 - search on that on regulations.gov and then check just the notices box when you get the results; you can then use the comment button to submit a written comment.

It is also possible to read and comment on any of the previously submitted comments.

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 12:32:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Another NWP21 Meeting in Pittsburgh Thursday (0.00 / 0)

Pittsburgh District: October 15, 2009, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The public hearing will start at 7 p.m. Additional information on this public hearing will be available at:
http://www.lrp.usace.army.mil/...

There is a hearing in each state, held by the different Corps Districts, so this hearing will be run by different people, and there will probably be fewer surface miners there, although there is a bus going up from Charleston.

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 12:56:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hearing in KY yesterday (0.00 / 0)

Coverage (whole article is worth reading):

PIKEVILLE - Coal miners who were given the day off work, caravans of environmentalists, businessmen and local politicians and pundits arrived Tuesday night for a public hearing on proposed changes to a 1982 federal regulation allowing valleys to be filled with dirt and rock left over from mountaintop mining.

Banners with the slogans "Coal Keeps the Lights On" and "Friends of Coal" stretched across City Park in Pikeville, where pro-coal groups were recruiting members and selling bumper stickers. The green T-shirts of Kentuckians for the Commonwealth, who are against mountaintop-removal mining, dotted the multicolored sea of shirts declaring "Coal Mining: Our Future."

The Army Corps of Engineers heard public comments before about 4,500 people in the Eastern Kentucky Expo Center concerning its proposal to eliminate the use of a nationwide permit for coal mining in six Appalachian states: Kentucky, West Virginia, Ohio, Tennessee, Pennsylvania and Virginia.

Kentucky elected officials show they can stretch the truth, too:

State Rep. Leslie Combs read a statement from House Speaker Greg Stumbo, who said that the region has seen less flooding since the start of surface coal mining. Stumbo touted the rights of property owners to determine the use of their own land and said that since mining reforms of the 1980s, he has never heard a landowner complain about land use.

"That offends me," said Beverly May, a Kentuckians for the Commonwealth member in Floyd County. She said before the hearing that her group has sent members to Stumbo's office in Frankfort and been told he won't listen to complaints about coal and mountaintop mining practices.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 13:13:44 PM UTC

Oops, missed the link: (0.00 / 0)

From Lexington Herald-Leader here.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 13:14:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Reminds me of Tea Baggers (4.00 / 1)

The organized effort by Friends of Coal and other major mining interests in mobilizing their base reminds me of the anti Health Care Town Hall Meetings.  These folks get pretty ugly when they are riled up.  Does anyone know how many of the "miners" that were there are really miners?

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by: wvblueguy @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 13:45:03 PM UTC

Comments rec'd via email from "overflow" crowd (4.00 / 1)

I heard one report of police escorting someone to their car, here's a report of police refusing to do so.

I went to the Charleston, WV, hearing hosted by the US Army Corps of Engineers, but was unable to get in and give comments because the place was full. This was after enduring a gauntlet of coal cult thugs hurling every insult imaginable at me and the people who came with me to see and listen. Although a few other people and I were in line and had filled out the registration forms to give comments, the Charleston police made us go out of the building where we were surrounded by more thugs pushing against us, threatening our lives, and again hurling insults. Our group included an eighty-year-old woman enduring 300-pound thugs screaming obscenities within three feet of her ears.

After 15 minutes or so of this shameful display, the Charleston police required us to leave. Because it was easier to control a group of 6 or 7 peaceful people than a mob of hundreds of violence prone thugs, and because the police did not want any of us or the police to get hurt, they escorted us off the premises. Essentially, police inability to control the mob resulted in our inability to give verbal comments.  While the building was full, we were prepared to enter once a few people left, but the police removed us from our place in line and removed us from the premises while the insult-hurlers were allowed to stay.

Our friends inside the hearing were able to give comments, but were drowned out by the mob.  When they complained to the hearing moderators, they were told the clock was ticking.  When they left, the police refused to escort the last small group to their vehicles, forcing them to run the gauntlet without protection. The police said, "You all knew what you were getting into; you're on your own," or a similar reply when asked for escort to cars.

The TV news channels didn't show this side of the night, and no one from the pro-mountain side appeared on TV.  Instead, the TV news interviewed coal supporters and implied there was no one from our side giving testimony. From one of the hearings, I don't know which one, one of the Corps of Engineers people said, "This is democracy working," or something like that.  This was not democracy working. It was a mob intimidating both the Charleston police and the US Army, as well as the peaceful citizens who came to give comments to protect their homes, live, and communities.

I've been criticized for comparing the coal industry's violent mob tactics to those of the Nazis during their rise to power in Germany.  What I witnessed tonight only cemented this view.  Violent, uncontrollable mobs go unchecked and even encouraged by industry and political leaders. A coal-machinery company CEO equates peaceful protesters to suicide bombers, in what can be no less than an effort to instigate or justify violence. The media reports it as "democracy," and a multimillion-dollar propaganda campaign promotes the lie that ending mountaintop removal would mean the collapse of the US economy.

These are scary times in Appalachia.

Where's our political leadership? Oh, that's right, the state house leadership is right there pouring gasoline on the fire.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 13:54:05 PM UTC

Where did this report come from? (4.00 / 1)

I'd like the link, if this eyewitness report has been published anywhere.

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by: blonde moment @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 16:55:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here's some eyewitnessing (4.00 / 1)

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by: Mary Jones @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 17:11:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Via email (0.00 / 0)

Should have been clearer, came via email.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 18:18:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is what escalation leads to (4.00 / 1)

Clem,
This is what I was talking about when I talked about how the escalation of extreme protests was unproductive.  All summer coal miners have felt that they were under attack.  This hearing was their counter-attack.  I personally was disappointed by the actions of the hecklers.  They were far more damaging to the pro-coal side than any of the environmentalist comments.  Although I suspect that the whole affair was a waste of time as I fully expect the corps to do away with NWP, it is clear that the actions of the summer have created a large crop of activists on the other side.
On a different note, what is wrong with a little compassion towards others.  I always thought democrats were the party of the working man(person - sorry).  If you were not moved by some of the testimonials you don't have a heart.  We can disagree on the issues, but it affects real people with real families.
VC

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by: viscount coal @ Thu Oct 15, 2009 at 01:13:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

agree and disagree (4.00 / 1)

I would agree with you if we were really talking about an escalation of extreme protests. I just can't see an equivalence between non-violent protests and intimidating people in a public forum.

I'm also a firm believer that "an eye for an eye" just leads to making the whole world blind. Even if there were extreme protests to respond to, the most productive response is not escalation. If you truly believe the first action to be irresponsible, it is equally irresponsible of you to condone an escalation.

There are people who should know better--not just Internet commenters, but also people in charge of thing--equating the current non-violent protests with what I completely agree have been radical, extreme, violent actions in other parts of the country in the past.

As to a sense of compassion, thank you for recognizing what sustains this blog and so many other progressive and Democratic party activists.

Why do you think we spend so much time trying to figure out how to improve the economy of the coal fields? Why do you think we're trying to figure out how to create good jobs opportunities for laid off miners? Why do you think we're trying to help rebuild communities left impoverished when all the coal is gone?

I am moved by anyone who is suffering. Aren't you?

The suffering of those negatively effected by mountaintop removal is every bit as real as the fears of coal miners built up to an impassioned frenzy by friends of coal.

We're all in this together. The sooner we can start working together to find solutions to the problems we all share, the better off we all are.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Thu Oct 15, 2009 at 10:06:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bravo! Bravo! Bravissimo! (0.00 / 0)

I only wish I could recommend your post a thousand times over. Well done!

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by: blonde moment @ Thu Oct 15, 2009 at 13:54:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Clear evidence of media bias (4.00 / 1)

No fair - Ken Ward quoted your reply but not mine- I've gone to get my torch and pitchfork - jk.  I am moved by suffering and I do understand the concerns of people living near MTM.  Their concerns are legitimate.  There are also legitimate LEGAL recourses to any damages they suffer.  I don't disagree that a more diverse economy would benefit WV.  I am generally for diversity in everything.  However, I think responsibly mined coal can provide the tax base to assist in encouraging the diversity.  
VC

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by: viscount coal @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 at 00:30:26 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nor mine ;-) (4.00 / 2)

But there is no legal recourse that will put back a mountain or a community once it is gone. Most things, once broken, can never be restored to what they once were. There has been talk of economic diversity and finding alternative work for miners since at least 1934 (see Homer Morris, The Plight of the Bituminous Coal Miner), and while we have diversified in the north, southern West Virginia continues to have no alternative.  Most of the profits continue to go out of state. We now have fewer miners than there were in 1900, so even the wages, which before the severance tax were the only benefit to the people here, continue to shrink.  The whole state bears the burden of the corrupt politics that avoidance of the real costs of coal and rent-seeking by the coal interests brings.  

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by: JAWVMM @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 at 03:12:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

take solace (0.00 / 0)

He may not have quoted your reply but it did help inspire the diary. :-)

Just out of sheer busy-ness, I suspect Ken Ward, Jr. is more likely to read diaries here than comments. Try your hand some day at writing a diary and who knows, maybe he'll quote it.

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by: Clem Guttata @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 at 10:59:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

the coal miners (0.00 / 1)

are not stupid...they know this is an all out assault on coal however mined...their jobs and livlihoods are at risk...i dont blame them for being pissed

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by: stevewvu @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 14:18:49 PM UTC

Folks that live around MTR Sites... (4.00 / 3)

are not only pissed, but they are sick and dying.  Their way of life is being destroyed.  MTR is not an answer for Appalachia.  The answer is properly conducted underground mining.  Underground mining provides more jobs and stevewvu you are just as wrong about this being an all out assault as the folks that are causing the uproar... big coal, friends of coal, and their ilk.

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by: wvblueguy @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 14:36:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Corps of Engineers is obviously tring to pull a political end-run. (0.00 / 0)

The law is the law, regardless of what either side says. So it is up to the Corps to strictly enforce those regulations, not stage events in an obvious attempt to let the Blankenwipes try to dissuade elected leaders from requiring the Corps from doing its job.

I'm going to give Commander in Chief Obama a piece of my mind for letting the Corps get by with what is tantamount to mutiny, and request that he demote whoever made the decision to hold these events.

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by: One Citizen @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 15:47:58 PM UTC

The Corps (0.00 / 0)

obviously would not be happy about having their authority challenged by the EPA, especially when it puts them under more pressure from the coal industry.  However, under the rules, they are required to hold public hearings when a formal request is made, and one was made by the National Coal Association.  I don't know whether there were other requests for hearings.

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 17:15:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Coal exposure causing mental illness??? (0.00 / 0)

Sure sounds like it to me. Then again, West Virginia does have the highest rates of mental illness in the US

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by: WV26003 @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 17:57:15 PM UTC

Miners or not (0.00 / 0)

I don't see any reason to believe that most of the crowd were not miners, given that there are thousands of miners within an easy drive of Charleston, and they believe that the government is trying to take away their livelihood. The Pike County hearing drew 4,500 according to the AP, and I'm surprised the Charleston crowd was so small.

No-one came close to physically threatening me or my spouse. Our car, with an "I Love Mountains" bumper sticker, was parked between two Friends of Coal pickups and untouched, although we were worried, given the crowd. We left just before 9, when I figured that it would be another hour before my name came up on the speaker's list, and nobody could have said anything in three minutes that would persuade anyone of anything, even if they could have been heard. Nobody said anything to us when we threaded through the crowd out front to get to the parking garage.

I didn't see anyone I would describe as a coal thug.  I saw a large number of scared and angry young men, and a few young women. Maybe the crowd outside at the beginning was angrier, since they weren't allowed in. I sat in the middle of a bunch of miners, next to an older man who said he owned a company that supplied only underground mines. We had a civil conversation about coal and health care while waiting for the proceedings to start. We didn't agree on much except that Clinton had shamed the presidency but had accomplished a good deal. One of the guys behind me gave me a Clean Coal bumper sticker and we kidded around about putting it next to my I Love Mountains sticker.

My spouse, waiting in line to get in, was told "I hope that all those environmentalists die in a fiery crash - tonight would be a good time" and another guy added "And in incredible pain."  That's ugly.  Accusing the assembled crowd of genocide was ugly but less personal.

And this comment on the YouTube video is really ugly

This is getting scarier and scarier.  These ignorant members of the Coal Mob are going to hurt someone.  They WANT to hurt someone.

They have the manners of a buzzard, the intelligence of a slug and the morals of a hyena.

Thanks for posting this so Americans can see what a gang of mouth-breathing knuckle-walkers the "Friends of Coal" truly are.

Take 15 minutes and think about what it might be like if you were a twenty-something miner, grown up in the southern coalfields, son of a miner.  Your grandparents and brothers and sisters and cousins all live near, and they are all supported by coal, too. You are proud of putting in long hours, making good money to support your wife and toddlers, and providing your country with the fuel needed to keep the lights on and the factories running.  Your father was proud of that, too. You know there are lots of regulations about protecting and restoring the environment, you've go hunting on strip-mined land, you fish in the streams. But there are layoffs in the coal fields because there is a recession, people are buying things, the factories are slowing down or shutting down, and there's less demand for coal. You want to stay where you were raised and where your family is. Now, imagine that your boss tells you that the government wants to shut down all the coal mining, and what you can see on TV and in the newspapers supports that. There are environmentalists from all over the country, and worse, people in your own community, telling you that your job is directly responsible for poisoning the air, the land, the water, the streams, and sickening people. You are a native of a state that people elsewhere, including national politicians, regularly make bigoted remarks about. And you are being called a willfully ignorant thug and worse.

Nothing excuses yelling obscenities or wishing death on anyone. But isn't it understandable? And is continuing to demonize miners and others in the coal fields going to help the situation?

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 20:07:20 PM UTC

Have you forgotten this? (0.00 / 0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

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by: blonde moment @ Thu Oct 15, 2009 at 14:01:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, I haven't forgotten (0.00 / 0)

As a matter of fact, I had that video very much in mind Tuesday night, and I saw no behavior anywhere near that ugly. Not to say it wasn't happening outside while I was inside, but I didn't see it.

I am not saying that there are not ugly and violent people or that some of them are not miners and coal supporters. I'm not even saying that I didn't feel that I was in some physical danger walking back to the parking garage.  But as my spouse pointed out, there were miners who had their young kids there, and I don't think they brought those kids into a situation where they thought there was going to be violence.

I am saying that miners are people, too, and that it behooves us to try to understand them, and also to make our points in terms that make sense to them.  If they believed that the damage mountaintop removal does to them and their community was greater than the benefit, and if they had an alternative way to make a living in that community, they would be protesting the damage it is doing, too. We haven't made that case to them.  I'll be doing a diary on that soon.

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by: JAWVMM @ Thu Oct 15, 2009 at 15:58:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]