No, Matt Turner, it's not just outsiders

Excuuuse me?!? (4.00 / 4)

"Coal is going to be our primary provider of electricity for the next 30 years. That's the practical reality,'' Manchin said. "West Virginia is very much willing to be involved and play a responsible role.''

The more I hear Manchin talk, the more certain I am that everything he says is a lie.

It ain't West Virginia coal that's gonna be used for electricity; it's the stuff from Wyoming. Ours is too high in sulfer.

And Manchin has already demonstrated what he means by "involved" - we could start another whole diary of people recalling times that he claimed he couldn't get "involved" in a regulatory process, then did just that behind closed doors.

And "responsible?" You mean like not challenging the Army Corps of Engineers to conduct safe, respectful hearings on MTR?

Gimme a [bleeping] break!

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by: blonde moment @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 13:22:41 PM UTC

Extract Steve from WVABLUE (4.00 / 1)

Hey Steve, get a clue man, the people in the coalfields are the ones being arrested, harrassed, and poisoned from the coal industry.  Their children are being threatened by an unstable toxic lake that patiently waits to let go at any minute while our governor advocates for the extraction of our natural resources for the benefit of out of state corporations.

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by: JBdem4usa @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 13:49:49 PM UTC

the continuing saga of the mountain state (4.00 / 5)

Matt Turner and Joe Manchin are simply bit players in a script that was written for West Virginians long ago. A passage from Shnayerson's excellent "Coal River" explains:

"This would never happen in rural Connecticut, Maine or norther California, or other places where such devastation would stir outcry and people with money and power would stop it. But Appalachia is a land unto itself, cut off by mountains from the east and Midwest. Its people are for the most part too poor and too cowed after a century of harsh treatment by King Coal to think they can stop their world from being blasted away."

Does anyone believe for a minute that either Turner or Manchin or Steve Walker or Bill Raney would deem to live in a community where massive explosions are a daily occurrence, and where the bath water can cause festering sores on their babies?  

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by: twilight campfighter @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 14:22:50 PM UTC

We are all downstream (4.00 / 2)

the people in the coalfields are the ones being arrested, harrassed, and poisoned from the coal industry.

Yes, they are the ones arrested and harassed because they are there. And yes, they bear some of the most dramatic and daily damage. But the largest damage done from coal is not the valley fills or even the acid mine drainage. It is the air pollution, especially SO2 and mercury, which affects those downwind from John Amos and other Ohio Valley plants. So, Steve, the rest of us have a stake here too, entirely apart from climate change. Anyone's right to do as they please ends at the point where they start damaging other people.

On the other hand, there wasn't a huge crowd of environmentalists at the Corps hearing in Charleston.  Where was everybody?

This would never happen in rural Connecticut, Maine or norther California, or other places where such devastation would stir outcry and people with money and power would stop it. But Appalachia is a land unto itself, cut off by mountains from the east and Midwest. Its people are for the most part too poor and too cowed after a century of harsh treatment by King Coal to think they can stop their world from being blasted away.

Why do West Virginians put up with, and even cite approvingly, this biased and defeatist picture? All kinds of environmental damage and exploitation has happened all over, and it is usually the rich and the powerful who do it, not stop it. And I am sick and tired of hearing how poor, downtrodden, and helpless Appalachia is. Even within West Virginia, we repeat these stereotypes endlessly - not about ourselves, of course - we are the exception.  But the people in the southern coal fields, or the other end of the county, up the next holler, or on the next block - what can you expect - they act that way because they are ignorant hillbillies. They can't help it, of course - they have been isolated in the mountains, poor, exploited, uneducated, in-breeding, on welfare for generations. We need to save them from themselves.

And those of you east of the mountains act like outsiders sometimes, talking about supporting the rest of us.

Where was everyone yesterday when I asked for constructive ideas about what to do instead of coal? Why would everyone rather complain and snark than be constructive?

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 15:45:38 PM UTC

woah there . . . (0.00 / 0)

"Cite approvingly"? Are you daft?  

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by: twilight campfighter @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 16:37:00 PM UTC

Possibly daft (0.00 / 0)

I read the quote as being used to explain Turner and Manchin's behavior, and therefore claimed as true.  If you didn't mean it that way, I'm sorry.

Coal River is one of the books I haven't read on the issue, and it may be otherwise excellent, but it concerns me that it may perpetuating the idea that West Virginians are helpless victims.

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 17:00:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

just the way it is (0.00 / 0)

Coal Valley is a must-read - particularly for anyone who isn't from or doesn't live in the southern coalfields. The poor victimized West Virginians is not just a meme - its a reality resulting from lack of money and power, as Coal River correctly points out. Chaining ourselves to Massey equipment and sitting on the governor's floor will do noting to change that. Until we are united and organized to the point that we can swarm and overwhelm a coal-related event like the Massey workers did at the Army Corp's "public hearing" recently in Charleston, little will change.  

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by: twilight campfighter @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 18:00:18 PM UTC

I agree (4.00 / 1)

that chaining ourselves to Massey equipment and sitting on the governor's floor is not going to help, perhaps for different reasons. I also agree that we need to be united and organized, but I don't think swarming coal-related events is going to help, either, especially if we do it as the miners did, with the idea of being able to overcome by sheer force of numbers and noise or emotional appeals. A majority of the people who are being harmed by the mining and burning of coal (which is everyone, but the people in the coalfields and the people nearest the power plants most of all) must be convinced that the harms to them outweigh the benefits, to the extent that they are willing to speak up.

The poor and victimized Appalachian meme, which has been around for even longer than Big Coal, is destructive. Generations of missionaries, VISTA workers, activists, and others have come into Appalachia to help us poor victims. Generally, help given with that attitude perpetuates or even worsens the situation.

It is just as demeaning to be categorized as a powerless victim or as a coal thug. Neither allows us to hear what the people we characterize that way are saying, and until we hear and understand their needs and position, we have no hope of forming a large enough coalition to oppose the power of coal money.

As activists, falling into the powerless frame of mind also keeps us from doing as much as we might.

See this Google Books preview of Doing Democracy

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by: JAWVMM @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 19:27:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're both right (0.00 / 0)

JAWVMM is right to fight the stereotype of the poor and helpless Appalachians, but at the same time twilight is right that too many people have fallen into that stereotype trap.


When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

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by: Carnacki @ Thu Oct 22, 2009 at 12:43:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I went to the library (0.00 / 0)

to get Coal River and discovered I had read it and just hadn't connected it - I've read a lot lately.

Shnayerson does a good job of covering Joe Lovett's legal battles, reporting on Massey's ugliness as a company and an employer, and covering the coal field resident activists.

It's unfortunate he put in the poor and cowed bit, because he certainly doesn't portray the people as demoralized, but as the activist heroes they are.

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by: JAWVMM @ Thu Oct 22, 2009 at 00:08:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

JAWVMM (4.00 / 1)

One of the ways we can help the activists - even those of us who aren't "real West Virginians" because we live on the "other side of the mountain" - is to highlight and celebrate and support the activities of the activist heroes, to let them know they do not stand alone and have support in other regions of this state. Even when I don't always agree with their tactics, I back their play publicly and criticize privately because they're out there doing their best.

When a man embarks upon a crime, he is morally guilty of any other crime which may spring from it. Sherlock Holmes.

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by: Carnacki @ Thu Oct 22, 2009 at 12:49:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Carnacki (0.00 / 0)

Saying you don't think something will work is not being unappreciative of the effort.

I am west of the mountains, and if I have ever said anything that you are interpreting as implying that those east of the mountains aren't real West Virginians, I'm sorry, because it was not what I intended and would hate anyone to think I did.  I did think it was unseemly to make the remarks made earlier about the eastern panhandle supporting the rest of the state, and if that sounded critical of anyone in the eastern panhandle who said that, and those who agreed, I'm not sorry, because I was.

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by: JAWVMM @ Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 03:43:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

JBdem4usa and WV26003--unhide that stevewvu comment, please (0.00 / 0)

I personally would like everyone to see it. Yes, I gave it anunproductive, a 1, as opposed to mojo, a 4, but you two decided to give it a 0, hide it and i think therefore all comments under it.

I understand the urge, I do. Carnacki and I go back and forth about which one is arguing with the dude in an unproductive manner.

Disagreeing with someone is no reason to censor their opinion. Point out how wrong they are. I know he is not reality based, but we are. Maybe my argument is importing Meteor Blades from dkos, but that is where I stand. His ridiculous opinions make us all look better IMHO.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 22:45:59 PM UTC

Cannot do (4.00 / 1)

Respectfully, anyone who attacks the panhandles deserves to be hide-rated. That would include Manchin, Perdue, Thompson, Tomblin, and Boggs.

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by: WV26003 @ Thu Oct 22, 2009 at 13:37:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unfortunately (0.00 / 0)

hiding that comment also hid the attack by the eastern panhandle on another part of the state. Or perhaps fortunately, depending on your point of view, I guess.  What's sauce for the goose...

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by: JAWVMM @ Thu Oct 22, 2009 at 18:44:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]