West Virginia - In the Dark on the Future of Energy

We should be used to it by now. (4.00 / 2)

West Virginia has a long dark past when it comes to legislators conspiring with the coal industry, starting with lawmakers enabling coal operators to make indentured servants of the able-bodied men all across the coal patch..

Right up to today, WV laws have always been so undermined by industrialists that it has killed our state economy. Otherwise, why are we still one of the most resource-rich states in the entire US while our per-capita income remains at the bottom rung of the U.S. economy? And Mingo County coal production per man hour sets records while its poverty rate is 12% worse than the rest of WV!

Thanks to our state's coalocracy, AEP and Dow decided to put their dangerous and costly experimental carbon capture crap-shoot here. And that Mingo liquid coal boondoggle is an industrial disaster just waiting to happen.

Fact is, people are dying at far higher rates in and around the WV coal industry thanks to too-lax ELECTION laws here. Otherwise our legislature would start legilsating according to the writing on the wall.

---

by: One Citizen @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 19:46:59 PM UTC

WV voice of reason (0.00 / 0)

spells out the complete distain for anything resembling a comprehensive energy policy for WV, by showing WVBlue readers what the social justice lobbyists have to face at the legislature on a daily basis.  This bill epitomizes the complete disregard for anything not coal related.  We need an energy policy now that looks beyond coal to embrace the future of technological innovation with renewables, that's where the policy discussion should be going.

---

by: JBdem4usa @ Fri Feb 12, 2010 at 16:08:42 PM UTC

fossil fuel (1.00 / 1)

I estimate that 40% of Americans or more believe that fossil fuels are causing irreversible damage to our planet.  If those 40% would simply refuse to use any products or services related directly or indirectly to fossil fuels, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by more than any cap and trade style regulation could ever hope to achieve.  Those 40% would use green energy such as solar electricity and battery powered vehicles( with batteries charged by non coal-fired powerplants).  This would necessarily lessen the demand for oil by at least 40% in the US reducing fuel prices greatly.  The increased market share for the solar electric component producers would allow those products to be sold at a more reasonable price, bringing even more people in.  What I'm saying is that the complete problem can be solved without any legislation or policy-making at all, and I can still drive my Hummer to work.  I find it difficult to believe that any person alive would actually use gasoline powered vehicles or coal fired electricity if they actually believed it was killing the planet.  That would be so wrong.  Please do the right thing, please?

---

by: camwv @ Fri Feb 12, 2010 at 22:13:10 PM UTC

welcome to WVaBlue (4.00 / 1)

So, camwv, based on your suggestion, are you lobbying the WV legislature and PSC to provide green electricity options for WV consumers? What about a good strong net-metering and guaranteed buy-back provision?

You see, our legislature is already putting a heavy thumb (more like the whole body) on the scales towards coal. So, to do what you suggest will require at least some legislative or policy-making changes. Those options just don't exist in any meaningful way.

Finally, it doesn't really matter what percentage of American "believe that fossil fuels are causing irreversible damage to our planet." The problem exists one way or another. It's a bit unfair for you to ask me to solve the problem you are disproportionately causing if you indeed drive a Hummer to work.

Global warming is real and humans are causing (or at least contributing) to it. The sooner we take action to address that, the less expensive the necessary action will be. The actions we need to take--conservation, efficiency, independence from fossil fuels--are all good ideas anyway.

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 00:11:11 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the Welcome (1.00 / 1)

I don't think the government has to offer anything as far as green energy options.  The options are readily available for purchase: solar panels, electric vehicles, etc.  The coal just happens to be cheaper and more convenient. If a person thinks it is going to damage the future of their children, why would they ever participate?  I refuse to do anything that I believe will harm my three children now or in the future.  I know there are a lot of people who do believe or at least say they believe that fossil fuel usage will destroy the planet.  Carbon emissions would be drastically reduced if all those millions of individuals stopped using fossil fuels altogether.  It is simple.  I believe the market for alternative fuels will boom and become very price competitive as we approach the depletion of the fossil fuels.  I also believe that the world will live to see that day.  As that day approaches, private investment will flood the market because many will want to be the guy or gal that make the replacements for coal and oil!  Asking the government to prematurely step in and interfere with the natural flow of demand will eliminate existing jobs and will most certainly mean that I won't get to be the guy that comes up with the miracle alternative.  It will be a government chosen guy that probably owns GE or someone like that.  I don't like the idea of the government taking money from my company, then using it to prematurely end my company and all my friends' companies, by funding some other company to replace us. Let us all have a crack at it on our own.  Believe me, when the coal and oil runs low, we'll have the right alternatives, and they won't cost a single taxpayer dollar. P.S.- I live less than a mile from the office so I probably use less fuel than your average hybrid on my daily commute.

---

by: camwv @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 01:07:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

coal not really cheaper or more convenient (4.00 / 1)

I don't want to make any assumptions here, but it sure sounds like you've got on rosy-colored glasses on about that coal stuff you make a living from.

The coal just happens to be cheaper and more convenient. If a person thinks it is going to damage the future of their children, why would they ever participate? I refuse to do anything that I believe will harm my three children now or in the future.

First off, you started with a false premise. Coal is not cheaper and it is not more convenient when you include all of the costs. If you'd like me to link to any of the numerous studies on the matter, I will. It doesn't matter if you believe it yet or not, either way the mining, processing and burning of coal is creating health risks for you and your three children.

Second, you pretty well answered your own question. Why do people do dangerous things to get by? It is human nature for us to do what we can to get by in the short term even if we know it is risky in the long term. That's hard, if not impossible, to avoid at an individual level if you don't have the resources to do otherwise.

Collectively, it is certainly something we can do something about. Right now our government is still favoring coal and fossil fuel industry with subsidies, despite the known health risks. The federal government has been intermittently helping wind and solar industries, but not very consistently. Creating some sort of pricing mechanism for green house gases is a market-based solution for cleaning up our atmosphere.

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 12:38:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Solar and wind (4.00 / 2)

are renewable energy resources not alternative fuels. We are approaching the depletion of fossil fuels. Obviously, conservation is one part of the solution. However, continuing to subsidize the fossil fuel industry while ignoring the existence of renewable energy alternatives, as our legislators are doing, shows a lack of common sense and foresight. The miracle alternatives that you speak of are already here and companies developing these energy resources should have the same government assistance that coal and other fossil fuel industries have enjoyed for years at the taxpayer's expense.  

---

by: wv voice of reason @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 15:29:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Miracle Alternative (0.00 / 0)

Solar and wind are great energy sources, but they don't work 24/7 like fossil fuel.  The miracle alternative will work 24/7.  Obviously you believe coal and oil are more convenient than the alternatives because you still use them while wind and solar are currently available for purchase.  You can fit your house with solar today.  It will cost about 3 times what you will pay for coal fired electricity over a 25 year period.  I considered it for my home because I want to be off "the grid".  If it worked effectively 24/7 I would already have it.  If you think subsidies keep the coal industry in business, you're crazy.  Without tax revenue from the "total" coal industry, our state government could not function anywhere near it's current level of spending. I don't think you know how many companies in my area ( North Central WV) provide jobs that would not exist if companies like Consol didn't need our products that make deep mining more efficient and more safe. The cost of losing these jobs will be far more devastating than the loss of the actual mining jobs.

---

by: camwv @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 16:24:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

camwv -- changing the subject? (0.00 / 0)

You haven't addressed the question of negative impacts of coal mining. Do agree that the impacts exist?

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 17:39:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

to clarify (4.00 / 2)

By definition a miracle alternative would also need to be safe and non-polluting.

Our new house will utilize solar water heating and partial electric generation this summer. I would like to see sources for your figures. Are you including the cost of environmental cleanup and health problems associated with coal-fired electrical generation?  

I did not say that subsidies keep coal in business, only that renewable energy developers should be able to enjoy the benefits of subsidies, too. As for jobs, north central WV is evolving - the high tech industry is but one example of job diversification away from the extraction industries. However, it does require re-training.  This additional education for displaced/unemployed workers is subsidized by several government programs.  

To reiterate: No one is saying "stop deep-mining coal". What we are saying is that WV with the assistance, instead of hindrance of the legislature), should begin preparing for the future now. Surely no one questions why there are so few livery stables or buggywhip manufacturers around today.  

---

by: wv voice of reason @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 18:19:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Assistance (0.00 / 1)

I don't think the legislature needs to assist the coal industry OR the alternative.  Subsidies come out of the peoples pockets in the end, and the companies that benefit are always connected by campaign contributions.  I think that a business should be able to offer a product to the people and sell it based on results, without having to compete against the outfit that is tied in politically.  I still don't see why any of this is stopping people from committing to total green energy when they profess that green energy is the cure for what ails us. As previously stated and not argued, if all the people that think green is the answer went totally green, the problem would be solved.  No taxpayer money involved in that solution whatsoever, only positive benefits for the environment, the green energy industry, and the the green movement.

---

by: camwv @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 19:07:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

in other words (4.00 / 3)

You want us--those of us who are most concerned about making this a better place to live for you and your children--to foot the entire bill for your pollution?

Not to sound too crass about it, but that's a really selfish attitude.

Personally, I'd rather we found some solutions that benefit everyone. Cleaning up the atmosphere that we all share would benefit us all. Cleaning up West Virginia waterways and our water table--another shared resource--is another benefit that we'd all share in.

We're all in this together. Lots of us are doing what we can both to reduce our impact on the planet and to advocate for more sustainable public policy.

What contribution are you willing to make?

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 20:59:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

camwv (4.00 / 2)

I'm curious... you sound like you might be a smart enough business person to be keeping an eye on long term opportunities.

I recently criticized Gov. Manchin's energy policy in part because no firms in W.Va. received green manufacturing tax credits--the states around us are jumping into that business much faster than WVa.

Is that a program that you've heard of? Is is something you think would have any value to your company? Or, is your firm too small to benefit from such things--is there too much paperwork and what-not involved?

My impression is there are state government agencies that routinely help state business get matched up with these kinds of federal funds, is that true? And, if so, did you hear anything about this green job initiative?

I'm really curious what the perspective of a small manufacturer is on these kinds of programs.

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 21:04:37 PM UTC

Lead by example... (0.00 / 0)

To clarify, I would never suggest anyone pay for my pollution.  I am suggesting that people should lead by example, not by force(heavy energy taxation).  Large numbers of people with no carbon footprints will change the world, and more will follow.  See-ers become believers.  

We have the capacity to build or do whatever we want, but we are not interested in special programs that are funded with tax dollars. We like our customers to buy from us with their own money, of their own free choice.

I'm currently working on a simple but huge device that will remove Carbon from CO2 and emit oxygen. Maybe we'll sell it to some powerplants if cap and trade passes and then we'll have coal-fire with no carbon emission at all.  It will be much smarter than pumping CO2 into the ground.  We'll use the residual carbon to make carbon fiber products. The question that holds investors back from this project is: when, then, will oxygen become a harmful by-product?

---

by: camwv @ Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 23:31:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

you keep dodging my questions (4.00 / 2)

Do you agree that coal mining, processing and burning have significant measurable negative effects? Because if you're going to say you just choose to disbelieve those studies you'll have a difficult time being believed by anyone on most anything else around here.

To clarify, I would never suggest anyone pay for my pollution.

Uhm, not to get all tit-for-tat but you kind-of-sort-of pretty much already actually did exactly that from the git-go.

The only solution you are proposing to address global climate change is for me and my like minded friends to fork over money most of us can't afford to put solar or wind onto our houses. Meanwhile, you drive a Hummer and it sounds like you buy coal-powered electricity for your home, too.

There are plenty of other ways we can lead by example other than going off the grid.

The majority of miles I've driven in the last 10 years have been in a car that gets over 40 mpg and is a super-low emissions vehicle. That's leading by example.

My new year's resolution this year is to lower my carbon/green-house-gas emissions by at least 10% compared to last year. There already over 500 of us doing the same. Will you join us?

And, although others around here are tired of hearing me talk about it, I'll repeat it for your benefit. A few years back when I did a major renovation on my house, I took a serious look at wind and solar. I've got a pretty good spot for wind being right near the top of a ridge line. Unfortunately, the net metering regs in WVa are tilted strongly in the utility favor and I couldn't figure out any way to make the project affordable for my limited budget. Instead, I invested in conservation and efficiency measures that now keep my payments to the electric company really low.

What ultimately killed it for me is there is no guarantee the power company will buy back excess electricity I generate. To me, that's a pretty good example of where status quo interests are making it difficult to move forward.

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 11:41:28 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes, there are negative impacts (4.00 / 2)

Clem, I do believe there are negative impacts related to the use of fossil fuels.  There are also negative impacts to wiping out mountains to build major highways.  There are negative impacts to many things.  I commend your conservation methods, I just think there is strength in your numbers, that could be used by you to achieve the desired results without waiting for politicians to do it.
For example, if 40% of your electric provider's customers went solar and put the buy-back on the table as the only way the provider could keep their meter on your houses, maybe you would see action.  I know none of this is easy, but almost nothing is easy.  I disagree with you when you say you'd be paying for my pollution.  The Hummer hardly ever gets fuel put in it, and nearly every drop of fuel or kilowatt of electricity we use is squeezed for its maximum productive use.  Any waste means payroll could be tough to make.  We have to conserve, or we won't make it. We have it down to a science. Through it all, not one person has ever been laid off by us.  

---

by: camwv @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 16:25:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Never trust a HumVee owner who carps about how responsible citizens shouldn't spend their precious taxes. (4.00 / 1)

Mainly because he likely bought his gas guzzler based on a whoppin' $87,000 Bush bidness tax break. Besides, chances are that he and his coal operator pals pay no income tax at all. On top of that, if he's implying that King Coal isn't West Virginia's biggest welfare queen of all time, then he's lying.

So, camwv, just how many miles per gyrene do you get in that rustbucket, pal?

By the way, back in 1986 (when gasoline cost under a buck a gallon and Ronald Reagan took Jimmy Carter's solar panels off the roof of the Whiite House), Arch Moore's Super Tax Credits were supposed to have helped WV businesses climb out of a bad recession by promoting widespread hiring. Instead over 90% of the credits were used by coal operators for the purpose of mechanizing their entire field operations. Which means that although "tooling up" cost them little to nothing (and us a LOT), it put even more West Virginians out of work.

The coalocrat monkeyshines have only gotten worse since. Forgiving the coal industry the huge workers comp debt put a huge burden on small businesses and drove even more people out of jobs.

So now, when camwv's kids grow up and leave the state because they don't wanna work in daddy's business because the coalfields and everything around them are all hazardous waste coal dumps and there's nothing to do but hang out in a strip mall built on a dusty "reclaimed" strip of blacktop, then maybe camwv will start to wake up.

If they don't die first.

Isn't it odd how Republicans like to portray Obama and the Democrats as "anti coal", yet the stimulus bill (which Shelley Moore Capito voted against) devoted $2.4 billion to pilot projects for "clean" coal. The Obama administration awarded $20 million of that to a program that uses supersonic shockwaves to compress carbon for storage, on top of $408 million in stimulus money awarded to two other carbon pilot projects. And last time I checked, it has pledged an additional $1 billion more to a model plant called FutureGen.

If the Waxman-Markey climate bill becomes law, a new Carbon Storage Research Corp. would pump another $1.1 billion a year into researching that experimental technology, and first movers would get billions of dollars more in bonus emission allowances that could be sold.

Yet this Hummer-driving hypocrite rolls in here suggesting that we treehuggers should all be "rugged individuals" instead of demanding that the government help to develop alternative renewable energy sources in WV.

CAMWV would love for us all to just forget that there are peer-reviewed scientific studies showing that wind can be a reliable energy source, if done properly.

Apparently someone powerful believes those reports, though, because currently nine governments are involved in planning a $43.5 billion network of high voltage, direct current cable that will connect the renewable power sources indigenous to their respective climates.

The players include Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden and Ireland and the UK. Together they can collectively utilize energy from solar, wave generation, tidal, wind, geothermal and hydro-electric.
much more here

Not only that,

China, the world's second-biggest energy consumer, will invest about 100 billion yuan ($14.6 billion) to more than double its wind power capacity by 2010 from last year, a government official said.

The country's wind power capacity will rise to 30,000 megawatts from 12,000 megawatts, Shi Lishan, deputy director of renewable energy at the National Energy Administration, said in Rudong city in the eastern province of Jiangsu today. China's wind power capacity was the fourth-largest in the world last year, according to Shi.

Investment in alternative energy may exceed 2 trillion yuan by 2020, the National Development and Reform Commission, China's top economic planner, said in 2007. Wind power is "vital" as it is the cheapest form of renewable energy, Shi said. About 80 percent of the country's power is produced from coal. source

Yet what is the U.S. doing?

the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (our country's largest producer of wind power) counts on only 8.7 percent of wind nameplate capacity as dependable capacity at hours of peak demand.

This means that back-up power, most often natural gas or coal, is running simultaneously in the event that the renewables cannot meet supply. The result is that real reduction in carbon emissions are much smaller than the amount of clean grid capacity that is added. However, steps can be taken to address this issue that make renewable energy a better investment and more reliable.

Texas, eh? And they've got their oilfields. The Appalachian Regional Commission says we can do better.

So while this carbon-hearted camwv rolls in with his gas guzzler with "drill baby drill" emblazoned on his bumper, whining that rightwing myth that "the federal government can never create jobs",

China plans to finish 5,000 miles of high speed railways by 2012 at speeds of 215mph, faster than the fastest Japanese bullet trains, which go up to 185mph.  New high speed lines are being opened monthly in China, while we are still bickering about our first high speed line, the 84-mile Tampa-Orlando line scheduled to be built by 2014.  The Florida line will have a max speed of just 168mph.  source

Finally, camwv, as you the word gets around, when you tool around the coalpatch with your kiddies in that dinosaur wagon, expect to see more of this:

---

by: One Citizen @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 01:31:23 AM UTC

I guess that means you refuse to go green (0.00 / 1)

Wow!  I just thought that I'd give my opinion on how YOU could save the planet without government intervention. Now it is obvious that you won't, so I'll have to, even though I believe the fossil fuel will be gone before it's too, late.  

All the tax hikes associated with cap and trade will be paid by YOU.  I'll be off the grid, while you suffer with outragious electric bills and even more outragious gas and grocery bills.  The truth will probably be that they will still mine coal and I'll still employ lots of people to make sure the miners stay safe and production stays high. My companies leave near zero carbon footprints so we'll be fine.

I just thought the believers in the cause would want to get with the program, go green now, and save themselves alot of money in the process.  I bet if you ordered 100,000 solar kits at a time, they would sell them for less than your current electric bills would add up to over the course of 25 years.  

But you won't do it!  You'd just rather argue about it!

People gain respect by taking action, not by begging the government to take some big wig's money and give it to another big wig that will overcharge them by at least 400%

All the contries mentioned in your post are bankrupt or soon to be, except for China.  If you want us to be like China, you'll first have to learn to work for way less money than you're accustomed to, if you have a job.

I am not a Republican, but I probably did make that Friends of Coal sticker on the H3. I probably made the stickers on your car, too.  I personally don't care for the H3, I have an H2.  I pay plenty of taxes. I'm not rich, but I'd like to continue to enjoy the freedom to pursue that, and I will.  I stumbled on to this website while researching some things, and was surprised to see so much hatred towards the coal industry from West Virginians.  I thought I'd give some honest suggestions that will work NOW and save us all a bunch of money.  You have the power with numbers, at least 35 million American families believe what you believe.  You just need to mobilize them and convince them to stop using fossil fuels now, before the government makes you all pay dearly, and they will, sooner or later, because they need the revenue.  They don't care about pollution, they want revenue.  You do care, so you should take action! Will you?  

---

by: camwv @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 03:04:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hummer Hypocrisy. Pure and simple. (4.00 / 1)

You really don't get it do you? In case you hadn't noticed, coal prices are down because demand is down. So although jackasses like you made fun of Al Gore's Live Earth Concert, people obviously have made changes.

Not you, though. Drive that carbon spewing piece of shit until it falls apart, because you'll never get a decent trade-in now that the cash-for clunkers deal has dried up, you idiot.

---

by: One Citizen @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 13:56:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

By the way, camwv (aka "Hummer Hypocrite") doesn't even live in WV. (4.00 / 1)

If, as he claims, he printed that "Friends of Coal" sticker, he most likely lives in Virginia. At least that's where all the movers and shakers are located who distribute that moronic piece of trite. He's also indicated that he's an outsider by the statement he made above about how surprised he is that "West Virginians" are coal haters.

So if camwv is reading this, he should first understand that the owners and operators of WV BLUE and I are not affiliated, so my statements are my own. Secondly, I don't bear any animosity towards coal, pal, so don't try to put words into my mouth. It's the outside coal operators whose pollution is killing my fellow state citizens, and wrecking my beautiful state's economy, polluting my water, and laying waste to our forests that I hate. And especially greedy outsider sons a bitches like you who are putting us all out of jobs.

By the  way, next time you're in WV, pal, you should start looking closer at those bumper stickers of yours. Because when you see THIS, it's MY doing.

---

by: One Citizen @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 16:14:58 PM UTC

One Citizen (0.00 / 1)

You are attacking me personally, and that's unfortunate.  I'm definately a West Virginian and have lived here for all 43 years of my life except for a 6 month stint in NC.
I like your work, you could be a graphic designer for sure.

I'm not a skeptic of your cause, I'm just trying to find out who is really committed to it, and who is using it just as a political type issue.  I've used sarcasm here because it looked like the "norm" according to other posts, but I don't think I've attacked anyone or told them they were wrong about anything.  I have stated that I may not believe certain things, but I don't believe anything at all until my own brain agrees.  

---

by: camwv @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 16:48:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Wise up, pal. (4.00 / 2)

I don't call you a moron to insult you. I do it because unlike you, I'm a truth-teller.

You posted wind is unreliable, so that makes you either a liar or a moron. Take your pick.

I figured you for an idiot because you strongly implied that treehuggers are hypocrites. The fact that fossil fuel sales are so far down so obviously knocks that theory for a loop that I figured you you were a simpleton who couldn't put 2 and 2 together.

Then you ignored direct questions from Clem and insult me by putting words in my mouth, so what do you expect? Valentine's Day Hugs n' Kisses?

On top of it all you preach that we should all be "rugged individuals" when the economy has most of WV already tightening up as much as possible, even as your beloved industry eats up MY state and federal taxes at unprecedented rates.

So don't stroll in here, drop a deuce and then expect everyone to commend you on how fine it smells, you raging welfare queen.

And when you kid start dying of cancer because she made the mistake of drinking out of the school fountain after gym thanks to the filthy Coalocracy that you and your ilk have set up, you should remind yourself that Clem and yours truly tried to warn you.

By the way, EPA studies have revealed that the coal sludge found in impoundments, injected coal slurry, and coal ash ponds at power plants all contain the same toxins.

It must make you so very proud.

---

by: One Citizen @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 17:30:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

All this and you still refuse (0.00 / 1)

You still buy gas and coal-fired electric even though you know all those scary facts that you posted?  You could easily use your electric bill money to buy any other alternative that's available.  If you lead the effort to make it happen, you'll also be a millionaire, because you'll win the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.  I'm the moron.  If I believed it would save the world I would lead the effort, but the leader HAS to believe it, or he or she won't be followed or taken seriously.  I DO believe that YOU can make it happen.  Why do you refuse? If you have to involve the government, just ask them to give you a low interest loan to finance the whole thing.  Use what you currently pay for electricity to pay it back.  If they really care, they would jump on that in a heartbeat.  It would cut emissions by 40% immediately, far more than cap and trade is projected to do anytime soon. But you'd still rather attack the dummy that thinks that the Earth rules man, not that man rules the Earth.

---

by: camwv @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 17:54:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, you're not a moron. (4.00 / 1)

You're a lying hypocritical moron.

Small business loan, eh? From where? CitiGroup? You're no businessman, you don't know anything about what I use for an energy source, and you know even less about Cap and trade.

I am not tackling any dummy, I am stating facts.  

---

by: One Citizen @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 19:46:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I know you, and you know me... (0.00 / 1)

And we both know you use gasoline and coal-fired electricity.  The President said "Bold steps, not half-measures".  He doesn't have the power to move the machine.
You do.  Nobody has denied that what I have proposed will work. The real power is in the people, and you can lead them to prosperity.  I didn't say small business loan.  Get them to run the press a couple more minutes for you, they did it for a lot of banks that proposed not to save the world but only to save their tails.  If you get 40% of the market to move, you'll be GOD.  I probably don't agree with you politically, but I'd vote for you, because you're a real leader.

---

by: camwv @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 20:27:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

what you proposed won't work (4.00 / 2)

There, I said it.

Not all of us who want to implement micro-green power generation have access to the financial or political capital to make it happen. If you had any sense how hard some of our friends have worked to make wind power a larger reality in West Virginia, you might realize how insulting your comments are.

I'd like to give everyone who wants a job in WVa a job. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. We're not just sitting around here wishing things were different, we're actively trying to change what happens next.

The substantive ideas you let slip through your mocking suggestions are exactly what many of us are doing with our grassroots and Netroots advocacy--working for change to make it possible to do the things that you're giving us a hard time for not yet having accomplished.

Now, unlike One Citizen, I actually believe you when you say you're involved with a small business in north central West Virginia that has coal companies like CONSOL as a customer. As Upton Sinclair once said, it's hard to get someone to believe something when their livelihood depends on not believing it.

Like One Citizen, though, I've also reached the conclusion that you're not here to engage in discussion in good faith.

I can't speak for anyone else around here, but you've worn out your welcome with me.

When you're ready to have a constructive discussion about the future of energy, environmental or economic policy for West Virginia, I would truly welcome to hear your perspective as a small business owner.

I've asked you questions I am very curious in hearing your answers on. If you're not willing to engage in a real dialogue with folks who are working hard to make this a better state for you and your kids, maybe this isn't the place for you.

---

by: Clem Guttata @ Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 23:11:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you for your honesty (4.00 / 1)

Thank you for your honest opinion and I apologize for offending you, that was not my intention.

---

by: camwv @ Mon Feb 15, 2010 at 00:25:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well said, Clem (4.00 / 2)

Quite a derailment from the original topic of a poorly written bill lacking any vision for WV.

 

---

by: wv voice of reason @ Mon Feb 15, 2010 at 00:44:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]