We must choose the least unfit.

reason (4.00 / 1)

It is pretty clear that we disagree over the direction to take with Manchin.  I think we leverage the threat of our voting power (a threat that must be backed up if need be for it to matter) to keep Manchin from doing any more damage to the Democratic Party and you think that we must defend this Democratic seat at all cost.  I imagine that reasonable folks can see the logic of both positions.  Regardless, I respect you for defending your stance and look forward to working with you moving forward.  

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by: Jeremiah @ Wed Oct 13, 2010 at 04:49:50 AM UTC

if it is control of the senate for two years, yes (4.00 / 2)

and people who agree with you have to find a primary challenger in 2012. Manchin will not be any closer to the President's progressive environmental policies then which are the issue here.

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Wed Oct 13, 2010 at 14:46:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm still torn myself (0.00 / 0)

I agree Raese is a hair more extreme than Manchin. However on any issue likely to actually come up I see no difference.

From the paper today:

In an attempt to quantify this, Nate Silver, a pollster for The New York Times, created a complex system for ranking candidates' relative liberal or conservative leanings. He found that of the nine Senate races he considers not locked down, the ideological difference between Manchin and his Republican opponent John Raese was the smallest difference between any Democrat and Republican in such a contested race.

Silver said that could suggest Democratic campaign committees may not be very enthusiastic about having Manchin in Washington because he "might be only half as helpful to Democrats from a policy standpoint" as a more liberal Democratic candidate.

Like I said in 1996 I vowed never to cast a vote for Manchin.

I'm giving him till election day to give me 1 reason. 1 real issue that might come up for a vote that he would be with the democrats on.

Otherwise I'm going in there and voting all democratic except I'll not vote at all in the Manchin/Raese race.

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by: Hollowdweller @ Wed Oct 13, 2010 at 18:55:49 PM UTC

I still think about 96 and wonder what if? (4.00 / 2)

I also wonder if it was because she was a woman or ??????  That was practically the whole Dem leadership involved in that.

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by: MadAnne @ Wed Oct 13, 2010 at 20:17:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

even ben nelson is more progressive than olympia snowe (0.00 / 0)

when you look at the final passage votes on the floor of the senate.

she and the other maine twin may make us swoon and pine for the days of moderate republicans with their committee votes and chats in the hallways with reporters, but they are an extinct species. this is the rebirth of the john birch society of my CA teens. trick or treating for unicef was not welcome and i remember the impeach earl warren billboards.

senate majority whip jim demint or dick durbin for next two years?

NFTT: Support My Team or I Will Dance

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by: CA Berkeley WV @ Wed Oct 13, 2010 at 22:35:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Is One Reason Enough? (4.00 / 1)

I'm giving him till election day to give me 1 reason. 1 real issue that might come up for a vote that he would be with the democrats on.

Otherwise I'm going in there and voting all democratic except I'll not vote at all in the Manchin/Raese race.

Okay, I'll give you a few. Here goes:

1) Joe Manchin will vote for Harry Reid for Majority Leader, and John Raese will vote for Mitch McConnell, or maybe even Jim DeMint. The organizational vote is THE most important vote in any Congress. This is the vote that determines who gets to decide the agenda, and who controls the committees. That means that environmental champion Barbara Boxer would be replaced as the Environment and Public Works Committee Chair by global warming denialist in chief James Inhofe. It also means that fighting liberal Patrick Leahy would be replaced as the Judiciary Committee Chair by noted white supremacist and segregation supporter Jeff Session. That's something that is very real, and it makes a huge difference.

But, here are some others for good measure.

2) Manchin supported the stimulus bill, while Raese opposed it.
3) Manchin increased the state minimum wage in 2006, while Raese wants to abolish the minimum wage altogether.
4) Manchin may be a disappointment on tax policy, but at least he doesn't support a 30% national sales tax. John Raese does.
5) Manchin supported prescription drug reimportation as governor, and Raese does not.

The Nate Silver chart shows Manchin at a 3.5 to the right on a 10 to +10 scale, while Raese is a 9. This means a difference of 5.5/20, or 27.5%.  It seems to me like that is quite a lot. Manchin is not perfect, but John Raese would be an absolute embarrassment. You said that one was good enough, and I gave you five, with one of them a threepart answer. Are you now willing to vote for Manchin?

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by: Steve Nicholas @ Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:55:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's the correct answer (0.00 / 0)

The most important vote either will cast is who gets control and who runs the committees. Everything the senate does comes from this.

I think anyone assuming Raese would be for "only 2 years" might want to be careful. Folks said the same thing about Shelley Moore Capito in 2000.

If not Manchin, I don't see who steps up to beat an incumbent senator in that short span of time.

I also believe that if Raese wins, you can count on the narrative to be "W.Va. moved to the right." The media will focus on the first GOP senator in more than 50 years before they give any progressives hold-outs any "credit" for a Manchin defeat.

Which, of course, would probably lead to even more W.Va. Democrats getting scared of conservative anger and moving to the right on more issues.

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by: heath_harrison @ Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 05:34:27 AM UTC

narrative (0.00 / 0)

regardless of the outcome of this campaign we need to have folks looking at the number of Dems that do not vote because of Manchin's attack of core Party principles.  If we sit back and let this story be written we are damned either way.  Either Manchin lost because the state is shifting to the Right or Manchin won because he shifted to the Right.  

Beyond that, letting Manchin go off the range without THREAT of revolt from the base only gives other Dems cause to do the same.  Stare into the abyss and don't blink.  

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by: Jeremiah @ Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 23:23:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Vote Manchin if you Must (0.00 / 0)

but letting it be known that there is nothing he could say or do to keep you from voting for him only gives him cover to undercut even more Democratic positions.  

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by: Jeremiah @ Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 23:17:57 PM UTC